JJ in battle of the blinds, 10/20 NL

[FoxwoodsFiend]

Villain is in BB w/1915. HHero covers and has J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Folded to hero, who makes it $65. Villain calls.
Flop (130): 4d 7c 9c
Hero bets 90, villain makes it 400, hero calls.
Turn (930): Qs
Hero checks, villain bets $700, Hero raises villain all in (1450).

Would you say I overplayed this?

[Yeti]

Decide on the flop what you are doing. I am shoving.

[FoxwoodsFiend]

[ QUOTE ]
Decide on the flop what you are doing. I am shoving.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did decide what I was doing on the flop, and it didn't involve letting all worse hands off the hook.

[Yeti]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Decide on the flop what you are doing. I am shoving.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did decide what I was doing on the flop, and it didn't involve letting all worse hands off the hook.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not even close to being true, and you know it. Still, if you're going to be an ass everytime someone offers advice..

[FoxwoodsFiend]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Decide on the flop what you are doing. I am shoving.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did decide what I was doing on the flop, and it didn't involve letting all worse hands off the hook.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not even close to being true, and you know it. Still, if you're going to be an ass everytime someone offers advice..

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't mean to be a dick. Sorry. Here was my plan on the flop:
if the turn came an ace or a club I was going to lead out and fold to a raise.
if the turn came anything else, I was going to go for the check raise.

Now, take away my supposedly rude comment and replace it with this one: Don't you think that going all in just gives villain the opportunity to ditch all hands worse than mine instead of continuing what I suspect to be his bluff?

[Yeti]

Why do you consider this to be a total bluff? It looks a lot to me like a draw (flush more likely than straight) or a pair that wants to shut it down quickly.

I don't really understand leading the turn on a club at all. If I insisted on calling the flop (and I really don't like it), I would lead the turn on any blank, and check a club, hoping for a free river.

The problem, of course, is that you don't know what a 'blank' is.

It is important that you do not forget that this is a blind battle; Villain has no idea how strong you are. Your opponent has already put in 1/4 of his stack. If you shove here, most opponents won't fold any flush draw, any pair+draw, a good 9, TT, etc. Some will even call with 88 or second pair convinced you are bluffing.

In my opinion the best way to play these hands out of position is just to stick it in early and let them make the mistake.

[9cao]

I think this is rarely a stone cold bluff and all draws have huge equity. One high club and 2 overs and you are behind on the flop, and even a lone club over has 11 outs (an over hit the turn). The line you took committs all sets and 2-pairs (although unlikely). I guess it does also committ TT, 88, and a the ace of clubs, but hardly seems like you have any definitive edge here overall.

[Allinlife]

I guess I only like it if villan is super aggro and capable of turn semibluffs like that. I'm thinking turn stop and go may be better against an unknown.

[RED FACE]

I don't play this high but if you're going to cold call that flop shouldn't you be pretty much going into check-call mode? His flop raise is of significant size and the board draw-heavy enough that a monster most likely goes ahead and 3bets villain on the flop, no?

Isn't presenting a sneakily played slowplay as a bluff ev-?

If he flopped a set or 2 pair did you want him to think you had pQ's?

If he's on a draw doesn't he usually check behind on the turn? When he didn't doesn't that suggest a monster against which you have no fold value?

[FoxwoodsFiend]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't play this high but if you're going to cold call that flop shouldn't you be pretty much going into check-call mode? His flop raise is of significant size and the board draw-heavy enough that a monster most likely goes ahead and 3bets villain on the flop, no?


[/ QUOTE ]
If I put villain on a bluff, I don't want to give up any free cards by just calling the turn, though I run the risk of doing so by checking I think he'll bet it.
[ QUOTE ]

Isn't presenting a sneakily played slowplay as a bluff ev-?


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not quite sure what you mean. I don't think I'm bluffing at all.
[ QUOTE ]

If he flopped a set or 2 pair did you want him to think you had pQ's?


[/ QUOTE ]
I've pretty much given up on trying to get people to fold two-pairs and sets by min-raising them all in.
[ QUOTE ]

If he's on a draw doesn't he usually check behind on the turn? When he didn't doesn't that suggest a monster against which you have no fold value?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think a main difference between 10/20 and whatever stakes you play (not meant disparagingly) is how much more aggressive with draws players are.