66 hand, bad?

hobbsmann · #1 10-02-2005, 11:48 PM

Button was a 54/22 lag monkey with turn and river aggresion factors > 3.5. Was this turn raise bad? Do people call the river if it is a blank?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 1 fold, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (10.70 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 11.70 BB

bank · #2 10-02-2005, 11:54 PM

I c/r flop and call down if 3 bet.

W. Deranged · #3 10-03-2005, 02:48 PM

Hobbs,

I think the flop line here is the problem.

Your hand isn't strong enough to wait for such an aggressive turn line, particularly as so many turn cards will make this tough to play (either will likely help your opponent or induce him to check behind). I understand that this may seem like a "wait to the turn" for more equity situation, but I think in a heads-up pot against an aggressive player that such a line is going to have some problems.

In such a situation, I like taking a kind of HPFAP approach of betting the flop into the pre-flop reraiser. You're going to get raised a bunch of the time, but often the raises will be from inferior hands anyway. So I bet in order to make sure that no fewer than 1 and no more than 2 bets go in on the flop.

On the turn, I like a donk-bet. Again, you'll get raised a lot, but often by inferior hands. Checking the turn and possibly giving a free card seems bad. As does check-raising, particularly since it's so hard to fold to a three-bet. So I bet in order to make sure that no fewer than 1 and no more than 2 bets go in on the turn.

That river sucks. I think bet-folding would be silly here, as your opponent is so aggro, and bet-calling here is spewing. Check-folding and check-calling seem the options. The A is a terrible card and so check-folding is probably better, though I'm check-calling a river blank.

hobbsmann · #4 10-03-2005, 03:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hobbs,

I think the flop line here is the problem.

Your hand isn't strong enough to wait for such an aggressive turn line, particularly as so many turn cards will make this tough to play (either will likely help your opponent or induce him to check behind). I understand that this may seem like a "wait to the turn" for more equity situation, but I think in a heads-up pot against an aggressive player that such a line is going to have some problems.

In such a situation, I like taking a kind of HPFAP approach of betting the flop into the pre-flop reraiser. You're going to get raised a bunch of the time, but often the raises will be from inferior hands anyway. So I bet in order to make sure that no fewer than 1 and no more than 2 bets go in on the flop.

On the turn, I like a donk-bet. Again, you'll get raised a lot, but often by inferior hands. Checking the turn and possibly giving a free card seems bad. As does check-raising, particularly since it's so hard to fold to a three-bet. So I bet in order to make sure that no fewer than 1 and no more than 2 bets go in on the turn.

That river sucks. I think bet-folding would be silly here, as your opponent is so aggro, and bet-calling here is spewing. Check-folding and check-calling seem the options. The A is a terrible card and so check-folding is probably better, though I'm check-calling a river blank.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, I think I screwed up this flop and I think I'm ahead of this guy enough to want to get more bets in. My thinking at the time was that I was ahead often enough that given a safe turn I could extract max value, but I ultimately don't think my hand is strong enough for this. The concept of controlling the amount of bets that goes into the pot seems to fit well against this guy (ie I like donking this street now).

My thinking on the turn was that I have fairly strong hand compared to a monkeys 3-betting range so not trying to get two bets out of him on the turn would be wasting value. The thing is given his aggresion a bet/call probably is best here as he will be raising a large number of his holdings (this includes a lot that I am still ahead of). Also, getting 3-bet on the turns sucks, but I have to call with a gutshot as well as having a fair chance of having the best hand.

This river was probably the worst card for me and beforehand my plan was to check/call a blank and check/fold an A.

In general, I find these situations interesting and important to understand how to extract the maximum from LAGtards with mediocre hands. As I move up in limits these situation become all the more common and thus striving to improve here is important IMO. I would greatly appriciate more comments on this hand.

aslowjoe · #5 10-03-2005, 06:01 PM

I would c/r the flop and lead turn,if 3 bet I would go into check call mode incuding. I think against a complete mainac I will win 1 in 10 so I will call the river. If he was just a normal LAG I would call any card but the Ad which is about the only thing you could see him bluffing on AK-J, diamond draw.