A check/raised river

[Peace Frog]

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He might have a 9 high flush which 95% of the time he wont be able to get away from even for 2 more cold on the river.

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Where on earth do you play poker? I want to meet people who can't get off a 9-high flush 95% of the time here.

[ike]

Alot of people feel bad about lying and wouldn't tell you they had a set here unless they did. They're gonna have to show it to you and look at your face if you call them. I'm not saying its wrong or anything like that, but it would make a lot of people uncomfortable. Think about your opponent, is he the type of guy who would tell you and be genuinely happy for you when you showed and folded your two pair as he spreads his set or is he serious about the game and trying hard to win? If he's the kind who'd be embarassed to lie then he's got the set and you should 3bet, if he isn't then you have some thinking to do. I'm personally not at all surprised he showed what he said he would, people do this all the time in Turning Stone games.

[Senor Choppy]

I doubt the sb is good enough to put you on a flush, know that it's not to the nuts, and think he can induce a raise by telling you he's got a set to disguise the fact that he has the nuts. I think he's got a set 80% of the time here, and a missed flush draw or something bizarre another 20% of the time. BTW, are you actually a woman? If so, I think the odds of him telling the truth here go up to 90%+.

If he would've just called I would've check-raised. Since he was raising already, you should call and hope for an overcall from the other player.

[Senor Choppy]

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Where on earth do you play poker? I want to meet people who can't get off a 9-high flush 95% of the time here.

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I think you can meet them in any cardroom in the country. These people would be the exception, not the norm.

[skp]

I don't think that you should at all be worried when you put a raise in on the turn and no one makes it 3 bets. It's a near cinch that you have the best hand when the board does not pair on the river. When you have a King high flush, it's usually more comforting to have two opponents rather than one as one of them will be drawing to the nut flush (which means that the othetr does not have the nut flush).

I had a hand in a live 50-100 game on Saturday when this principle came into play.

I had raised UTG with KcQs. A very good player in MP 3 bet. Both players in the blinds called. I called.

Flop: Jc9c7c

VGP bets and we all call.

Turn: Ts

I bet. VGP raises in tempo. sb coldcalls and the bb folds.

The sb's coldcall made it clear to me that VGP was either on 88 or was trying the old raise the turn and check the river play with a hand he felt might be best but vulnerable (like a set). I thought this because I put the sb on the Ace of clubs draw which means that VGP could not have a flush given that he has neither the Ac or the Kc and he had 3 bet me preflop. So, I had an easy 3 bet on the turn. They both called.

I bet the river and the VGP made a good laydown (he later told me that he had a set and I believe him). The sb called me with presumably some kind of pair. He showed only the Ac after I tabled my hand.

Getting back to the river play on your hand:

I think that you have an easy bet on the river. You got a little lucky in that the player behind you bet. He could easily have been on a draw to the nut flush and simply checked the river costing you a call or two on the river.
The sb checkraises the dude and says he has a set. But what he says makes no difference. You almost surely have the best hand. If you are convinced that the limper will overcall, you should just call (because there is a slight chance that the sb may have you beat). But I don't think that you can be sure that the limper will overcall. Conversely, the limper may call even if you 3 bet if he has a lower flush which he could have. I would 3 bet.

[hutz]

River puts the K onboard. Sb now checks. I check, as I don't really feel too happy about those turn calls.

This is a good thing. A 3-bet from someone might have been a tad worrisome. Cold calls on the turn in a multi-way pot are not scary when you hold the second nuts.

Bet the river.

[Peace Frog]

My sub-point was simply that a random Vegas player who holds a 9-high flush for 3 bets on the flop, 2 on the turn, a check/raise on the river, and now 3-bets... Should be able to figure out someone has a bigger flush. One exception might be if he's a player in a white chip game. The other exception might be if he's a world beater, realizes the bb is also a world beater, who knows that he's got sb beat and would now try to get him off what he suspects is a non-nut flush, but one that beats him. This mentality is as unlikely as the white chip mentality, which leads to my *main* point that calling is usually preferreable to 3 betting, because it's not likely a Vegas player holding a 9-high flush calls all bets here, but will likely overcall and it's better to pick up a bet this way rather than to risk a 4 bet by a better hand.

[Peace Frog]

The above post should be under your response to me below. Sorry.

[M2d]

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BTW, are you actually a woman?

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the mere word "woman" so doesn't even start to get to the essence of the Babe. She is poker playing/golf playing/ machine who happens to be of a gender that makes her value bets oh so much more valuable (even though she doesn't value bet nearly enough) [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]. She'll meat you at the buffet for breakfast then take away your lunch money at the table.

BTW, I like the bet out/three bet on the river.

[Ulysses]

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River puts the K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] onboard. Sb now checks. I check, as I don't really feel too happy about those turn calls.

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Not betting the river here is ridiculous. Horrible poker.