(re)raising with second best hand to narrow field

[cianosheehan]

In TOP, Sklansky talks about raising or re-raising when you are sure you have the 2nd best hand, in order to force other opponents out and increase your chance of winning.

I am a bit confused about this concept. Isnt it better to keep others in, as this will increase your pot odds for your draw? If you are certain that hitting your outs will give you the best hand, why try and force others out when they could be paying you off?

Or is this down to having a made hand, say, on the flop, and at the same time being sure one other opponent has a better hand than you, and you are trying to force out others with weaker draws to stronger hands?

Finally, do you think its profitable to incorporate these moves into your low stakes game? Particularly the $25/$50/$100 rings?

Thanks
-Cian

[Niediam]

Raising increases the chances of you winning because:

1) You may increase your outs

For example: you are on a flush draw but by raising you knock out a better Ace than yours so if an Ace comes you have the best hand.

2) Opponents who fold can't draw out on you (or make a better hand at the same time you make your hand).

For example: You are drawing to a straight and only call instead of raise. Player X behind you decides to also call with bottom pair and a backdoor flush draw but would have folded if you raised. You make your straight on the turn but that also gives Player X a flush draw... which he completes on the river to beat you.

[WhiteWolf]

You want to pull this play if knocking people out significantly increases the chances of you winning your hand, even if you still end up as the second favorite. Hands like flush draws don't have this property: they will win about the same percentage of the time in a large field as they would in a small field (having overcards changes this equation somewhat). The best example I know of when to use this comes from 7 card stud: if you have what you think is the second-best pair on 3rd street, you really want to get it heads up with the top pair to maximize your chances of winning, so you will raise + reraise to knock others out.

Also, pot size comes into play here. Big pots really favor this play, small pots do not.

I really haven't used this play much in Hold'em, but it would probably apply in the made hand situation you mention, especially if you could get a lot of weaker draws to fold.

I'm not sure how much this applies to NL games, though....

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
The best example I know of when to use this comes from 7 card stud...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that the "raising with the second best hand to fold out all other hands" is usually more applicable in 7 card stud as compared to holdem, since the independent nature of stud hands makes it much more likely for weaker hands to catch up.

[cianosheehan]

How about this example, which does come up quite a lot;
You have an outside straight draw, but there are also two of a suit on the flop. Opponent x has, say, tptk, and opponenent y has the flush draw. X bets, and now its into you. What is the best play? You only have 6 clean outs, whereas Y has (lets just say) 9 outs. With only 6 outs to draw, you are unlikely to make your hand. You would have to make a decent raise to force Y out, but this of course would be giving you very poor odds to draw yourself. In fact, it would seem that you would most likely be depending on a fold from X as the most probable way of taking the pot.

Are there any situations in Hold 'Em where this would be a profitable play? And what would the pot/betting values have to be?

Cian

[LockLow34]

In hold'em, seems to me this play would be something along the lines of:

you're in late position with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]10[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Flop comes 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

you've got overcards and backdoor flush draw.

EP player bets (you think he has something like A9 or TT) and you raise.

Your raise would knock out players with hands like QJ, AT, KJ, or at the least give them poor odds to call. It would also allow you to take a cheap card on the turn.