Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster

Vote4Pedro · #1 08-11-2005, 01:59 AM

Villian is pretty loose, moderately aggro and tricky...He's not "good", but he's not a complete moran. I'm not running tracker so I dont have any numbers but I'd guess 35-45 VPIP, 8-12 PFR. A few hands earlier he bluff raised my river bet and showed after I folded; if that helps any

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button folds, BB calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero...

Make it 3? Wait and raise any river? Is this situation even worth discussing?

aK13 · #2 08-11-2005, 02:03 AM

I would fold preflop (open on the CO tho).

I call and raise the river.

Vote4Pedro · #3 08-11-2005, 02:29 AM

A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] just looked to pretty to fold PF against these monkeys

Shillx · #4 08-11-2005, 02:31 AM

Call and raise the river. This should be SOP here.

Brad

invictus33 · #5 08-11-2005, 04:37 AM

Why not just pop villian on the turn for a raise? Looks like he would call it.

thesharpie · #6 08-11-2005, 04:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just pop villian on the turn for a raise? Looks like he would call it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone who bluff raises the river and shows it at this level is usually a habitual bluffer. Therefore he will probably bet again on the river guaranteeing us to get 1 more bet in. He might also be more willing to call the river raise with something weak netting us 2 more bets as our raise is odd. We're not guaranteed to get another bet in if we raise the turn and he's outright bluffing, or betting something really weak. If he's the type to only bet a decent hand or semi bluff with something like KQ and won't bet again on the river then a turn raise is justified. Against this opponent though waiting is better.

Shillx · #7 08-11-2005, 05:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just pop villian on the turn for a raise? Looks like he would call it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This subject is very complicated. Let me give you an expert example on this topic.

You limp UTG with A8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and the next guy raises. Three players coldcall and the BB makes it 3-bets. Everyone calls. Six to the flop for 18 SB.

Flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks to you and you bet. UTG+1 raises. Everyone folds to the BB who makes it 3-bets. You cap and UTG+1 folds.

Turn (14 BB): A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB bets, You Call

River (16 BB): 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB bets, You raise, BB 3-bets and You fold

If you can understand this hand, you have this game down to a T. I'll give more thoughts on OP hand later. The main considerations are the villians ability to bluff and the pot size. As you can see though from the example I provided, hand reading is VERY important as well.

In the OP's hand, the villian's most likely holding is Jx. Is there any point in raising him if he does hold something like JT in a 5 BB pot?

invictus33 · #8 08-11-2005, 08:30 AM

After looking better at the hand posted I can see that it would be better to wait and pop villain on the river. Unless I'm looking at it wrong, we're either ahead and no river card can help villain, or we're behind and drawing near dead. (We're behind AT[4 ways], A8[4 ways], TT and 88) But I don't see villain holding any of those hands.

With this new hand that you posted I don't see why Hero would raise the river if he's going to fold to a raise? Why not just give a crying call and see if villain has the straight?

#9 08-11-2005, 09:21 AM

Shillx, are we really afraid of the straight here? Would BB 3-bet PF with 98, 43, or 83? It seems like AK, A7-A5 or 77-55 are the culprits here ... maybe even your A8 hand. (Tough to 3 bet the field OOP with 77-55 though, no?)

If we're afraid of these, why not raise the turn here to test the waters?

Worst-case is that BB 3-bets the turn, we call for the straight & fold to a bet if we miss assuming the baby set or better A-kicker. But, in this case, we're no worse off than the hand as you've laid it out.

We could win if the villain has KK, QQ.

We could earn a call on the turn & check on the river (which we could take or not), saving a bet if we're beat.

No?

fizzleboink · #10 08-11-2005, 10:53 AM

Here's my take on Shillx's example.

I think BB would only 3-bet PF with AA-TT and AK. The 3-bet the flop on tells me he has an overpair and not AK. On the turn you now beat KK-TT, putting yourself as a huge favorite to win the hand. However, if you raise the turn he will probably fold KK-TT right there. So you smooth call and let him bet out on the river, and raise him there. He 3-bets again, which tells you he can beat your pair of aces because the river card doesn't change anything. So I think the BB has AA and that is that.

Am I way off?

Edit: fixed a couple typos