the old mike l. rears his ugly head?

[mike l.]

"Assuming you want us to ignore the preflop limp"

you mean the one that's straight outta hpfap? sure. ignore it.

[mike l.]

i think folding is wrong. i think raising might be wrong too, but i definitely think folding is wrong given the pot size. the coordination of the board makes it a little reverse implied oddsy, but i think my favorable position, and suckiness of some of the players in the pot, makes at least calling the best play.

but is raising so bad? as it was i got reraised which was bad, but the chances ill be able to check the turn (and have info about the nature of a limper's hand should they donk bet the turn) or river if i choose to seemed strong to me, that's why i gritted my teeth and forced myself to make what at this point is an abnormally aggressive play. it felt very uncomfortable.

anyway i think folding this top pair against this field is wrong.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Usually, though, when a guy bets the turn when an Ace comes it's a sign that he has something with which he wants you to raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

This in itself is worth the price of admission to this thread. Something a lot of otherwise very strong players fail to consider often enough.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]


this is very true in those situations where you have AJ or something, the turn goes check-check, and he bets a river A, or you bet the flop and turn with AJ unimproved and he bets an A river.

but here, he 3-bet the flop. it's natural to lead out. a check would appear to be a sign that he's not going away, but he just made a continuation bet in a big pot that could come with the intention of folding to a raise. it's doubtful he 3-bet the flop with a flush draw, so it's unlikely he really wants him to raise, especially considering mike played his hand like a flush draw on the flop

so I don't think his bet necessarily has anything to do with the A. he had the intiative and he's continuing.

[sthief09]

the thing about raising is you make the pot bigger, which will cost you more bets in the form of crying calls, when they double. next, you force yourself to sometimes act first on the turn. if it's a 9, are you prepared to check it? absolutely not. you'd rather see the action. maybe someone slowplayed a straight or set, raises, and you can fold. or maybe the turn is the Ad, or any diamond for that matter, and there is a bet and 2 calls and you can just throw it away

also, mathematically speaking, your pot equity blows. pot equity is the backbone of any decision we make in this game. rarely can you make a raise with equity less than fair share

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: textbook call out of the loose games section in HPFAP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Andy,

I have the book right in front of me but am still having trouble finding it. They do mention playing K5s on page 163 but I can't find the Qxs example. Can you give me the page? Am I to assume that kxs and Qxs are the same? This preflop call seems highly suspect and even in SSHE preflop section where they discuss loose games with 6-8 bad players to the flop ED Miller, et al. don't advise playing below Q8s.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
I have the book right in front of me but am still having trouble finding it. They do mention playing K5s on page 163 but I can't find the Qxs example. Can you give me the page? Am I to assume that kxs and Qxs are the same? This preflop call seems highly suspect and even in SSHE preflop section where they discuss loose games with 6-8 bad players to the flop ED Miller, et al. don't advise playing below Q8s.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't make the preflop call with weak suited queens but I play on a different planet.

~ Rick

[vmacosta]

PF: good. I always limp with Qxs (sometimes even Jxs) after 4+ on the button in these loosy games. If its marginal, then all the better since it makes my hand hard to read by less astute regulars.

Flop: I would NEVER fold here. The pot is big and you have outs and might even win UI. I don't even mind raising since its likely the callers have little (who wouldn't raise with flush draw/pair+str8 draw here!). I think its very close between peeling and raising and really don't mind either. I think if kid is very aggro on flop and might 3-bet with flush draw, it makes raising better.

Turn: I don't like it nearly as much as some of the (better playing) posters in this thread. If kid had TP or an overpair, I'd think he'd have checked the flop with the intention of raising a late position bet. If it were me, there would be 0 hands I'd bet/fold in this large pot but you might be ahead of me occasionally when I have 6d5x. And with that hand, I might not be betting the river UI, so raising seems to lose some of its value (since you are really barely ahead of that hand anyway). I think its close between all 3 options but I think calling and re-evaluating on river is a little better than folding which is a little better than raising.

[andyfox]

They recommend playing more hands in loose games, especially suited hands, especially with position when you can get in for one bet pre-flop. Kxs and Qxs are in the same family here.

They also say you play it because you are going to play it well post-flop, which means sometimes letting it go when you flop top pair.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: textbook call out of the loose games section in HPFAP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Andy,

I have the book right in front of me but am still having trouble finding it. They do mention playing K5s on page 163 but I can't find the Qxs example. Can you give me the page? Am I to assume that kxs and Qxs are the same? This preflop call seems highly suspect and even in SSHE preflop section where they discuss loose games with 6-8 bad players to the flop ED Miller, et al. don't advise playing below Q8s.

[/ QUOTE ]



it's in the late position preflop section. there's a big picture of Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
They recommend playing more hands in loose games, especially suited hands, especially with position when you can get in for one bet pre-flop. Kxs and Qxs are in the same family here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I look at Qx suited as being quite a bit worse than Kx suited and Q7 or Q8 suited to be quite a bit better than let's say Q3. I don't have the latest S&M(&M) books with me but my memory is they looked at Qx suited as being quite marginal. In my condition, I like to fold marginal [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


[ QUOTE ]
They also say you play it because you are going to play it well post-flop, which means sometimes letting it go when you flop top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

My experience is that when top pair is a queen you are far more often going to be in a spot where you have to fold it to substantial action in front of you (compared to a king).

Understand this thread is mostly about post flop play but I read it late when I was very tired so just concentrated on what came to mind.

Regards,

Rick