Banking on suited connectors.

[Poker60181]

This is a hand i recently played in a local $3/$6 NLH game.

We were down to just 3 players, and i was dealt the 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the small blind. The button called and raised $15. He had been jacking it up every pot, and I had been waiting for a hand to catch him with. The BB called and raised all-in for $25 more. This disheartened me for a second, but i figured that if the dealer called, then I would too hoping to catch a flop and win a big pot. Well, he did, and I did - knowing that I had the worst hand going in. The flop came 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] , and I didn't want to mess around with the hand at all, so I moved all-in on the button for my stack (about $100 more). He folded, the all-in BB flipped over A K and I hit my flush on 4th.

This is a simple hand but I really felt good after it. This is "The Doyle Brunson system" hard at work, if I ever did see it. Don't be afraid to get in there and gamble with hands that have potential to tear up a good number of flops. I would've felt sick had I folded that hand.

[ZeroHour]

While this might be a "Doyle Brunson system at work" moment that makes you feel really good about yourself, the correct move here was to fold - calling $25 pre-flop with T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] with another $100 behind is not a very good idea - the stacks are WAY too small to call with this type of hand. Usually a good rule to use is that you could potentially call if your opponent's stack is ~ 20x more then his bet - (i.e. you could call $25 if he has $500+ behind). Good luck!

- ZeroHour

[Poker60181]

thanks but, that is not how i play, nor do i think it is the correct way to play. by no means do you need 20x the bet size to call. not even close. putting in up to 20% of your stack preflop on a hand like this is very justifiable when your pot odds and implied odds call for it. if you are only putting in a max of 5% of your stack on hands like these, then you are playing incorrectly, in my opinion, and not playing your hands profitably.

[warlockjd]

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thanks but, that is not how i play, nor do i think it is the correct way to play. by no means do you need 20x the bet size to call. not even close. putting in up to 20% of your stack preflop on a hand like this is very justifiable when your pot odds and implied odds call for it. if you are only putting in a max of 5% of your stack on hands like these, then you are playing incorrectly, in my opinion, and not playing your hands profitably.

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I guess that settles it. By all means call any rz with any suited connector from any position.

[DcifrThs]

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thanks but, that is not how i play, nor do i think it is the correct way to play. by no means do you need 20x the bet size to call. not even close. putting in up to 20% of your stack preflop on a hand like this is very justifiable when your pot odds and implied odds call for it. if you are only putting in a max of 5% of your stack on hands like these, then you are playing incorrectly, in my opinion, and not playing your hands profitably.

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I guess that settles it. By all means call any rz with any suited connector from any position.

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with no regards to actual equity of two hands in that situation and only another few bbs behind....and no real fold equity.

-Barron

[Poker60181]

in a 3 handed game, yes i would play this hand from any position for this price. you guys clearly have it figured out tho so keep on keepin on. the reason i play them is cuz i figure im not up against them so keep on foldign those suited connectors please! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[DcifrThs]

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in a 3 handed game, yes i would play this hand from any position for this price. you guys clearly have it figured out tho so keep on keepin on. the reason i play them is cuz i figure im not up against them so keep on foldign those suited connectors please! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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now you can realize that suited connectors lose value shorthanded as big cards are almost always better.

for an example. if you had $5 on a table and can only put in that $5 and there is $1 and $2 blinds and one person in early position raises to $5, would you rather have AK or 87s? obviously the all in equity of 87s does not justify a call whereas the hot and cold equity for AK does justify a call.

now expand it to relative stack sizes. if you have $10 behind and call a $5 raise you can only win $5 more dollars. so calling $1 w/ 87s and then calling another 4 is a mistake because you are virtually all in or committed to it and you will lose way more than the necessary # of times to call given the odds you're getting.

keep going and you will see that it makes sense to call w/ suited connectors if you can

a) push the raiser around post flop. how can you do this if by the time you get to the flop the pot is 1/5 or 1/4 or 1/2 of your entire stack? its just not a big enough threat to him.

now if you both have 20 or 30x the pot size on the flop then it starts to mean something because any bet is really the quesiton of "are you prepared to risk your stack here?" to some extent. with smaller stacks, the answer is almost always yes. with large stacks, it gets diced down to, "well, how much of my stack?" "you want me to call all in 30x the pot with my 1 pair?? nah i'll pass...but i would have called all in for 5x the pot w/ my one pair....too bad we have such deep stacks."

b) earn much more money later on in the hand than you put in. this is implied odds. if you have a hand that will make a big hand, like 87s, some of the time and you can stack your opponent then its worth it to put 1/20 of your stack in preflop. but its not worth it if your total stack is only a few times more than the bet you're putting in.

or

c) induce your oopponent to give you free cards and / or cheap cards by using your position and hand reading skills to adjust your bet to the pot size and yoru read of yoru opopnent. now you get to see more cards for cheaper than you would have...but this doesn't work if you have a small stack. you are almost forced to go all in on the flop whereas if you both had $10k stacks and there's $500 in the pot you can raise to $1000 and still have another 9k to win if you check behind the turn...but if you both only had 2k stacks raising that same $1k would likely get you all in as a dog on the flop, which is now what you want to do. you want to earn the rest of your opponents 9k or get him to fold a better hand.

if you cant see this, then nobody here can help you. its about as simple a concept as it gets.

and if i didn't meantion it before, shorthanded means big cards are more valuable

-Barron

[phil_ivey_fan]

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in a 3 handed game, yes i would play this hand from any position for this price. you guys clearly have it figured out tho so keep on keepin on. the reason i play them is cuz i figure im not up against them so keep on foldign those suited connectors please! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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you are an idiot.

[BobboFitos]

good post, but:

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and if i didn't meantion it before, shorthanded means big cards are more valuable


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isn't really true, your argument was moreso geared towards deeper stacks. (or even somewhat normal! in the OP's game everyone was rediculously shortstacked)

3handed I prefer 87s on the button to KJo, but I like both.

Obviously, the converse is true if we're playing shallow stacks... But the #of players doesn't neccessitate the power of each hand. (Although one could make the argument that raw big card power is more important 3 handed then say 10 handed, where % of domination is more likely, so the need for big hands such as straights and flushes from 87s isn't there... But even 3handed, which I play alot of, I look for big hand potential to play big pots with, not one pair hands)

[DcifrThs]

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good post, but:

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and if i didn't meantion it before, shorthanded means big cards are more valuable


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isn't really true, your argument was moreso geared towards deeper stacks. (or even somewhat normal! in the OP's game everyone was rediculously shortstacked)

3handed I prefer 87s on the button to KJo, but I like both.

Obviously, the converse is true if we're playing shallow stacks... But the #of players doesn't neccessitate the power of each hand. (Although one could make the argument that raw big card power is more important 3 handed then say 10 handed, where % of domination is more likely, so the need for big hands such as straights and flushes from 87s isn't there... But even 3handed, which I play alot of, I look for big hand potential to play big pots with, not one pair hands)

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oops....theres my limit mentality coming up ... "holdem is a big card game" etc...but thats limit...3 handed i'lll take KJo over 87s any day...but in nl w/ deep stacks this could be wrong for the reaons you state and that others have mentioned.

-Barron