People Who Quit

[Jorge10]

I was browing through the net, you know bored, went to some other forums and they had some bad beat posts and in those I saw about 3 posts by different people saying they were quitting poker because they kept losing. I dont know why, but I felt sorry for them, in my mind I was thinking I know if they try they can at least be break even players and have some fun with poker or something. I normally dont feel sorry for people but I really felt sorry for them because they said they had like 10 books and kept reading the forums and what not, which made me wonder, why cant they be break even players? I mean whats the problem, I dont know it just made me think. I know its hard to be a winning player, but break even shouldnt be too hard specially if they own books and think about the game, I mean it has be possible. I dont know can anyone answer this, Why cant players who read books and go to the forums be at least break even players? I guess I felt sorry for them because it seemed unfair since they put in some effort.

[mosquito]

[ QUOTE ]
I was browing through the net, you know bored, went to some other forums and they had some bad beat posts and in those I saw about 3 posts by different people saying they were quitting poker because they kept losing. I dont know why, but I felt sorry for them, in my mind I was thinking I know if they try they can at least be break even players and have some fun with poker or something. I normally dont feel sorry for people but I really felt sorry for them because they said they had like 10 books and kept reading the forums and what not, which made me wonder, why cant they be break even players? I mean whats the problem, I dont know it just made me think. I know its hard to be a winning player, but break even shouldnt be too hard specially if they own books and think about the game, I mean it has be possible. I dont know can anyone answer this, Why cant players who read books and go to the forums be at least break even players? I guess I felt sorry for them because it seemed unfair since they put in some effort.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not everyone can win, or break even. Even by trying hard
and studying. If you think about it, you will understand.

[KeysrSoze]

Even if they are a winning player, they probably see it as a get-rich-quick plan, and don't have the mindset for it. They watch the WPT and WSOP, read some books, and would now like to drag huge pots from the fish making thousands a day and never lose, rather than grind it out over an extended sample size. Same can be said for most of the people who get into day trading and real estate.

[MediaPA]

Reading books and visiting forums is only information. If you don't know how to apply the information that you've obtained properly, then it's actually pretty useless.

I know my game struggles immensely due to lack of patience and desire to take shots. I'm trying to grind it out having learned from my mistakes. I put 1k online to play $50Max NL. I've already played 400Max and 1000Max with the money.

Key thing is there's more to success than just books and forums. Game selection, personal issues, situation analysis, etc all contribute.

[CaptSensible]

[ QUOTE ]
Why cant players who read books and go to the forums be at least break even players? I guess I felt sorry for them because it seemed unfair since they put in some effort.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been playing for about a year and still consider myself a novice. Now if you put me in a game where no one has played before I would destroy them. Put me in with pros and I'll get destroyed.

When I first started playing I didn't understand the "play the player not the cards" concept. I thought "how can you win if you don't have the best hand?"

The more I play and learn the more I understand this concept. There's a great book called "Aces and Kings". It's about some of the best players who've ever played the game. It gives great insight into why the top players are the top players. It really has very little to do with the cards.

There's a chapter on Howard Lederer. He lost consistantly for two years and at times was sleeping on a park bench having lost everything.

The more I learn the more I realize how difficult this game is. Most of the greatest players have been playing for years and years, starting when they were very young. They also spent the early part of their poker careers losing.

I don't know how long the people you're referring to have been playing but my guess is not very long.

Poker is a very tough game. I guess it's really like anything else. I consider myself a great bass player and a pretty good songwriter BUT I've been doing it since I was 12. My first songs sucked! It's taken years to become a more accomplished songwriter. Pro baseball players have been playing since they were little kids. Spending most of their lives learning how to be good at what they do.

I think poker is like anything else. To be really good you have to devote yourself to it and be willing to spend a LONG time becoming accomplished at it. Even then, like writing songs or playing baseball there is no guarentee that you'll be great at it. The main reason for doing anything you devote yourself to should be because you love it.

[runout_mick]

[ QUOTE ]
Not everyone can win, or break even. Even by trying hard
and studying. If you think about it, you will understand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I think that those who actively study the game are a vast minority. As proof of this, look at the number of active posters here (easily the most informed poker site on the net), compared to the number of players who play just at party. Not to mention the players on the hundred or so other sites out there.

I believe very few players give it more thought than they do to playing craps or roulette, to them it's just gambling.

Maybe in 5 years when the fad dies down and only hardcore players remain will your sentiment be true, but with this environment of unlimited bandwagon "I saw it on t.v., looked easy" players, I believe that ANYONE with an I.Q. over 14 can be a break-even player, if they STUDY, and PRACTICE WHAT THEY LEARN. A little discipline and my pet monkey could become a break even player.

[Goodnews]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why cant players who read books and go to the forums be at least break even players? I guess I felt sorry for them because it seemed unfair since they put in some effort.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been playing for about a year and still consider myself a novice. Now if you put me in a game where no one has played before I would destroy them. Put me in with pros and I'll get destroyed.

When I first started playing I didn't understand the "play the player not the cards" concept. I thought "how can you win if you don't have the best hand?"

The more I play and learn the more I understand this concept. There's a great book called "Aces and Kings". It's about some of the best players who've ever played the game. It gives great insight into why the top players are the top players. It really has very little to do with the cards.

There's a chapter on Howard Lederer. He lost consistantly for two years and at times was sleeping on a park bench having lost everything.

The more I learn the more I realize how difficult this game is. Most of the greatest players have been playing for years and years, starting when they were very young. They also spent the early part of their poker careers losing.

I don't know how long the people you're referring to have been playing but my guess is not very long.

Poker is a very tough game. I guess it's really like anything else. I consider myself a great bass player and a pretty good songwriter BUT I've been doing it since I was 12. My first songs sucked! It's taken years to become a more accomplished songwriter. Pro baseball players have been playing since they were little kids. Spending most of their lives learning how to be good at what they do.

I think poker is like anything else. To be really good you have to devote yourself to it and be willing to spend a LONG time becoming accomplished at it. Even then, like writing songs or playing baseball there is no guarentee that you'll be great at it. The main reason for doing anything you devote yourself to should be because you love it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good response. Havn't seen one in a long time.

Cheers.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
Why cant players who read books and go to the forums be at least break even players?

[/ QUOTE ]

The short answer? Discipline, game selection skill, and bankroll management.

[Al Schoonmaker]

People lose for FIVE major reasons, and you have considered only the first one.

First and most important is LACK OF KNOWLEDGE. Obviously, if you don't know how to play, you can't play well. However, knowledge alone will NOT make you a winner. You and the poker literature focus almost exclusively on knowledge, but many people don’t play remotely as well as they know how to play.

Second is LACK OF MOTIVATION. Most losers don’t have a strong enough desire to win. They let other motives such as the desire to gamble or to take tough challenges cause them to make negative EV decisions, even if they know that they will cost them money.

Third is LACK OF DISCIPLINE. You don’t have to be a genius or even extremely knowledgeable to beat poker. You just need the discipline to do all the unnatural, unpleasant things that it takes to win. The two most important are:

1. Be ruthlessly honest about yourself and your opposition. Otherwise, you will select the wrong games and make foolish plays.

2. Do all sorts of boring things like fold, fold, fold. You want to play, but have to wait, and wait, and wait.

You must do many other things, but you have NO chance to win without these two.

Fourth is UNRELIABLE FEEDBACK. As SSH clearly explains, poker feedback is extremely unreliable. Unlike many activities, “the immediate results in poker are often divorced from your actions.” (p. 17) You can play well and lose, or play poorly and win for the short term. To be a long-term winner you must see beyond the immediate results, learn the right lessons, then apply them in a disciplined way.

Fifth is that CARDROOM POKER IS A NEGATIVE-SUM GAME. The players collectively ALWAYS lose. The house takes so much money out of the game that you must be significantly above average just to break even.

Because of all five factors, MOST players will ALWAYS BE LOSERS. Those people who quit because they are losers are MUCH more intelligent than the ones who refuse to accept reality, keep playing badly, and keep losing.

Regards,

Al

[Myst]

[ QUOTE ]
Those people who quit because they are losers are MUCH more intelligent than the ones who refuse to accept reality, keep playing badly, and keep losing.



[/ QUOTE ]

Thank god that the latter are more numerous than the former Al.