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  #11  
Old 12-26-2005, 05:11 PM
lehighguy lehighguy is offline
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Default Re: Did Arnie Really Deserve This?

I really don't think our fundamental views are as different as you think. I think a lot of it is either exaggerated by Europe or based on current excesses by the Bush administartion (excesses which I think if you polled people on they would come out against).

We still think democracy is the best system, torture is wrong, all men are created equal, etc. Do you really think you have more in common with the third world? That seems crazy to me. Most of the cultural and political systems there are way off compared to western europe and america. It isn't even close.
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  #12  
Old 12-26-2005, 05:12 PM
lehighguy lehighguy is offline
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Default Re: Did Arnie Really Deserve This?

Polls have caused a lot of trouble for America, I would keep them out of Europe if you can.

In any event, I've seen some crazy misconceptions of what goes on in this country when I visit another country. I don't even know where you guys come up with the stuff sometimes.
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  #13  
Old 12-26-2005, 05:32 PM
Arnfinn Madsen Arnfinn Madsen is offline
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Default Re: Did Arnie Really Deserve This?

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I really don't think our fundamental views are as different as you think.

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They really are, not easy to find matters on which we agree anymore.

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I think a lot of it is either exaggerated by Europe or based on current excesses by the Bush administartion (excesses which I think if you polled people on they would come out against).


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The fact that Bush could get elected and then reelected shows how deep the disagreement on fundamental issues are. He would be unelectable in Europe due to fundamental issues.

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We still think democracy is the best system,

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Strong belief in this and i.e. freedom of speech we share.

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torture is wrong,

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Then why do you keep torturing people?

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all men are created equal, etc.


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No, here lies much of the disagreement. In US philosophy all Americans are created equal (Afganis can be held without trial etc.), in Western Europe all men are created equal.

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Do you really think you have more in common with the third world? That seems crazy to me. Most of the cultural and political systems there are way off compared to western europe and america. It isn't even close.

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Third world is a bit too wide. But in general we have more common mindset with the third world population (if you disregard the moslem world) than the US population. However, many third world governments acts against the will of its people.
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  #14  
Old 12-26-2005, 05:39 PM
Arnfinn Madsen Arnfinn Madsen is offline
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Default Re: Did Arnie Really Deserve This?

[ QUOTE ]

In any event, I've seen some crazy misconceptions of what goes on in this country when I visit another country. I don't even know where you guys come up with the stuff sometimes.

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True, it is a mix of truths, assumptions, rumours etc.. I personally try to stick to the truths though.
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  #15  
Old 12-26-2005, 05:55 PM
lehighguy lehighguy is offline
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Default Re: Did Arnie Really Deserve This?

"Then why do you keep torturing people?"

Americans oppose torture 2 to 1 even in instances where the suspect is a known terrorist that probably has information that could prevent an attack. I imagine it goes even higher in other less dramatic instances. So Bush is doing it against the will of most Americans (and congress).
http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i10abcnews.htm

"No, here lies much of the disagreement. In US philosophy all Americans are created equal (Afganis can be held without trial etc.), in Western Europe all men are created equal."

A lot of the reason the US doesn't agree to things like the ICC is because we don't agree with the laws. Europe wouldn't sign an agreement if it stated women could no longer get divorces, and similairly American shouldn't have to sign agreements when it doesn't endorse the precepts.

As for enemy combatants caught in war there is an entirely different set of rules for them. You shouldn't expect some Taliban in Afghanistan that is shooting at Americans to be read his rights and get a phone call. There is a whole series of rules surrounding POWs.

"Third world is a bit too wide. But in general we have more common mindset with the third world population (if you disregard the moslem world) than the US population. However, many third world governments acts against the will of its people."

I think you overestimate your similairities and underestimate your differences. Most of the world has wildly different opinions on matters of marraige, free speech, family, women, religion, etc. Life and culture in India is much more different from Europe then life and culture in America. Even a developed country like Japan is different.

If your born in America or Europe, your life will be relatively the same. You can choose whether or not to obey your parents. You choose your spouse or none at all. You aren't discriminated against in government or the workplace based on race or religion. You can say what you want, express what you want. You can open your own business. Etc.

A lot of these things you can't do in other countries. Your marraige is arranged, your family chooses your career, you can't open a business, your divided along racial and religous lines, you don't have free speech.

I think Europeans exagerate tiny differences just so they can feel more unique. Because, at the end of the day, they are really tiny when you think about it.
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  #16  
Old 12-26-2005, 06:06 PM
Arnfinn Madsen Arnfinn Madsen is offline
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Default Re: Did Arnie Really Deserve This?

[ QUOTE ]

I think you overestimate your similairities and underestimate your differences. Most of the world has wildly different opinions on matters of marraige, free speech, family, women, religion, etc. Life and culture in India is much more different from Europe then life and culture in America. Even a developed country like Japan is different.

If your born in America or Europe, your life will be relatively the same. You can choose whether or not to obey your parents. You choose your spouse or none at all. You aren't discriminated against in government or the workplace based on race or religion. You can say what you want, express what you want. You can open your own business. Etc.

A lot of these things you can't do in other countries. Your marraige is arranged, your family chooses your career, you can't open a business, your divided along racial and religous lines, you don't have free speech.


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Life is very different, but the philosophy on life/ interhuman relations etc. is fascinatingly similar.

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I think Europeans exagerate tiny differences just so they can feel more unique. Because, at the end of the day, they are really tiny when you think about it.

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I don't think so, honestly. It comes from a deep desire to create a better world and from a deep fear about the sentiments in the US.
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  #17  
Old 12-26-2005, 06:19 PM
lehighguy lehighguy is offline
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Default Re: Did Arnie Really Deserve This?

"I don't think so, honestly."

Your entitled to your opinion. Back when the Soviet Union was around the differences seemed quite small no? I think people inflate the differences because it helps them feel unique. At the end of the day, we aren't at eachothers throats and we would help eachother out in a time of need.

"It comes from a deep desire to create a better world and from a deep fear about the sentiments in the US."

I don't know what you think our sentiments are. Most of us are isolationists. No one wants to be in Iraq and Afghanistan. Those who support it do so reluctantely, because they feel fighting there prevents fighting here.

Contrast that to China and Taiwan. China wants to invade and subjagate the country for no reason other then nationalism, ego, and expansionism. If China succeeds it will never leave Tiawan. American's want to leave Iraq and Afghanistan the first chance they get.

If you think we are the evil empire, your watching too much Al Jeezera. We would rather be left alone.
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  #18  
Old 12-26-2005, 06:20 PM
lehighguy lehighguy is offline
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Default Re: Did Arnie Really Deserve This?

But didn't you know we all carry guns everywhere we go.
And Santa Clause is the captain of a Hawian sail boat :P

Those are two of the funnier ones.
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  #19  
Old 12-26-2005, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: Did Arnie Really Deserve This?

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When discussing politics/philosophy with i.e. Thais or Africans, Western Europeans have more in common with them than with Americans.

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This list of countries with the death penalty includes many in Africa and Thailand.

Thailand is also one of places often mentioned when discussing rendition.




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It comes from a deep desire to create a better world and from a deep fear about the sentiments in the US.

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You're half right.
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  #20  
Old 12-26-2005, 06:51 PM
Arnfinn Madsen Arnfinn Madsen is offline
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Default Re: Did Arnie Really Deserve This?

[ QUOTE ]

Contrast that to China and Taiwan. China wants to invade and subjagate the country for no reason other then nationalism, ego, and expansionism. If China succeeds it will never leave Tiawan. American's want to leave Iraq and Afghanistan the first chance they get.

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China (Russia as well) gets away with a lot of human rights abuses since the focus has been on the middle east and the US, I agree on that.

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If you think we are the evil empire, your watching too much Al Jeezera. We would rather be left alone.

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I have watched it for 2 minutes, and I did not understand a single word [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. I don't look upon it as an evil empire, because many of the actions conducted are not with evil intent.
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