Laying Down KK preflop?

There has been a lot of hands, and 2 or 3 this week that have talked about folding KK preflop.

In most posts that I've seen spanning a couple different forums that I view, the majority of responses are not to fold KK(this is good advice) and then the poster comes and tries to justify his fold based on the read(it's also good to follow your strong reads).

Here's the bottom line regarding posts of folding KK preflop. If you really feel you made a good decision (and people have made great laydowns with KK, there is no doubt) then feel good about it and smile... cheer if opp shows AA, whatever. BUT... don't expect to post the HH without results, ask for opinions and get a response other than 'don't fold KK preflop'.

We can't make the same read based on the HH, nor can we get a 'feel' for the table based on a paragraph description. So even if you made a great dead-on read and dumped your KK, your going to get the same response because it is rarely a good idea to lay down KK preflop (notice i didn't say never).

The FAQ should probably be amended to say something to this affect in regard to KK posts.

[ahnuld]

getting 3-1? I call really fast. I hardly fold KK and especially not in a small game where half the players wanna push AK JJ

The way I see it, you cant be 100% correct with you read of the player. You will either have to error on the side of folding the best hand, or calling sometimes as a 4 to 1 dog.

I think you have two choices
A) Always call. You will get your money in with the best hand 100% of the time, and occasinally ocasions be a 4 to 1 dog
B) Fold when a you think your beat. You will occasinally avoid being a 4 to 1 dog, and occasionally give up the best hand.

I stick with choice A. I have never folded KK to QQ or AKs. And I can think of a time when a tight player has flipped up Q2o. Trying to use there table image to putting a move on me since I had been raising alot.

[pho75]

The only fact you need to consider are the pot odds. You are getting 2.5-1 on your money. You would have to be over 80% sure he had AA and not AK to make folding correct. This is a must call. I dont think you have an option.

[SonOfWestwood]

I've folded KK exactly once pre-flop, and it was yesterday. Of course, it was because I was stupid and let one of my tables time out and was folded automatically...

[nietzreznor]

Call. You're getting like 3-1, even if he has AA you're only a 4-1 dog, and he certainly doesn't have AA every time, I think you see AK, QQ-JJ often enough.

Good point: Does anybody have poker-tracker data for the frequency that an all-in 3 bettor has something other than AA? I did a quick search of my database. I could not find a single time where I had raised or re-raised with AA or KK and then had another player raise again all-in with any hand other than AA or KK. However my database is small, about 20K hands.

[ QUOTE ]
there are too many lay down KK pre-flop.

read poker-tracker.

don't use selective memory.

[/ QUOTE ]

[4_2_it]

I've got plenty over 75k hands. Admittedly, there were more than a few short stacks. Most all others were JJ-AA and AK. I think maybe one or two had AQ or AJ.

I think point to make is that if you are losing money over 25k hands or so with KK, it isn't because you keep running into AA. You have other problems to address.

Last week I had two villains 3-bet me all-in w/out KK when I had AA.

[ QUOTE ]
I've got plenty over 75k hands. Admittedly, there were more than a few short stacks. Most all others were JJ-AA and AK. I think maybe one or two had AQ or AJ.

I think point to make is that if you are losing money over 25k hands or so with KK, it isn't because you keep running into AA. You have other problems to address.

Last week I had two villains 3-bet me all-in w/out KK when I had AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same for me, a couple weeks ago I tripled up with AA. I raised, there was a re-raise and a push. I pushed and to my suprise(delight) the first re-raiser called too.

re-raiser had TT, pusher had QQ.

Of course this hand I had 2 of the aces from the deck, but still this stuff happens all the time with hands worse then KK.

This still seems a bit fuzzy. What is the frequency of all-in 3-bets with less than AA or KK?
Is it approximatly 1 time in 2, or 1 in 10, or 1 in 100? Based on poker-tracker data rather than just "I see QTo all the time".