Bot complaint

[Bytestream]

[ QUOTE ]
then the argument that a good-playing bot isn't possible no longer would hold water

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no argument. I am a software engineer and I have a 4.7BB/100 win rate at Party's 2/4 games. I do not doubt for a second that I could program a bot to beat the game. If it wasnt for my conscience, and lack of free time due to a full time job and taking masters courses in engineering, I would be writing one. Heck, you can download half the source code to begin with from SourceForge.

The argument that the best players could outplay a bot is irrelavant if they don't know its a bot to begin with. Knowing a player is a "bot" and is programmed to act "correctly" is far different then assuming the oppenent is human and prone to tilt, mistakes etc... Its further irrelavent because its not the bot's intention to challenge world class players to begin with. It may be up against one or two "better" players, but its still getting its share of the other eight. This, IMO is the biggest threat the bots propose. They are slowly and artificially bleeding the games and diluting your own bottom line.

Think of how "intelligent" a bot can be when it can has 10k hands youve played in its database. Simply logic structures can be coded to take action based on the bot's oppenents VPIP, agression factor, bluffs on the river % etc...

Regardless of all that, from what I've read, Winholdem was beating the game. And it wasn't even engineered worth a [censored]. Imagine Chris Ferguson using his PHD in Comp Sci and Artificial Intelligence and his world champ of poker expertise in programming some of the logic for Winholdem or his own "personal" application. Its just denial for anyone to think that there aren't simialarly talented people already doing this.

As far as Party being able to detect this software, impossible. Unless of course, you promote it, try to sell it and make the Poker room aware of its existence, they would never know youre running one in the same way the cable company can't detect youre getting HBO for free.

[Sandstone]

#1 Bots don't play NL/PL (Why would anyone bother with the incredibly complicated task of building a NL/PL bot, when limit would be MUCH easier to program for, and be much more profitable?)

#2 Bots don't check the nuts

[MS Sunshine]

The chances of there currently being winning bots in play are probably 90%.

The chance that there is any bot at all that could master NL is 0%.

I've mastered NL, it's not that hard.

The AI required for a winning bot at limit is inevitable. There is currently a Heads-Up bot that is said to be nearly unbeatable.

Are you referring to the Paradise bots from four years ago?

Programming a bot for NL is exponetially more difficult. Those few individuals talented enough to write winning bots would first tackle limit. I doubt there has even been any serious work at all in programming a NL bot.

I missed a couple issues of the newsletter Better Bots, was this in there?

Finally, even Dumb-bot at Ultimate Bet has never missed a bet with the nuts on the end. This would be covered in the simplest of code.

One person using winholdem, or someone who had seen it in action, posted that a line of code that would fold AA preflop if the pot wasn't larger than a certain value. It's tough to rule out any bug in a program.

Your fears are not unfounded, but don't worry about NL games.

I realize that you're trying to be helpful, but when it comes to gambling and MY money I worry about alot of things other don't.

MS Sunshine

[Sandstone]

[ QUOTE ]
I've mastered NL, it's not that hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well [censored], I didn't have any trouble learning to read and write creative works. I guess I should get started on writing a bot that can do that.

[Yeknom58]

If a person can't program software to recognize the nuts then there is absolutely no way it can be a winning machine. Now if you noticed he was online 23.5 hours a day for 7 days a week that would be a whole other story.

[MS Sunshine]

Poker is a simple decision tree. Four betting rounds and you try to make the best of 3-4 choices at each point. Not really writing is it?

Chess is more complex than poker and you can buy a program that will beat chess masters for less than $50. Poker now has much more money in it than chess.

Also for those that believe that making a bot that beats limit as opposed to NL, the reason I play NL is the games are easier than limit with less risk.

MS Sunshine

[crazy canuck]

First of all why are you people only focusing on whether the actual player in the hand is a bot or not? MSSunshine wanted party to investigate, but it seems party doesn't give a flying [censored] about detecting bots.

Secondly, I have undergrad level of AI knowledge (currently I'm applying them to financial markets and yes they can beat the same financial markets that some academics believe to be random!), and IMHO it would be fairly easy to make a bot that beats NL/PL. Sure it wouldn't necessarily beat the best players but this is party we're talking about.

[itsmarty]

[ QUOTE ]
I am a software engineer and I have a 4.7BB/100 win rate at Party's 2/4 games. I do not doubt for a second that I could program a bot to beat the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to dominate the playground, so I'm sure I could have made the NBA if I didn't have to get a job instead of make the high school team. Unfortunately, my Wizards jersey is as real as your poker bot.

Please tell us how it can be done when you've done it. You haven't even shown that you can write a losing bot, never mind a winning one.

Martin

[crazy canuck]

I used to dominate the playground, so I'm sure I could have made the NBA if I didn't have to get a job instead of make the high school team.

Using Artifical Neural Networks to Model Opponents in Texas Hold'em

If you wanted to significantly improve his method you could also use stas from pokertracker as input. And this is underdrad level AI.

[itsmarty]

[ QUOTE ]
And this is underdrad level AI.

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't change the fact that to declare something as a fait accompli because you conceptualized it on the couch one afternoon is perfectly idiotic.

If this Bytestream can write a poker bot, my pot head friends from college can fly a car powered by hemp to Jupiter and score with hot Jupiter skanks.

Martin

Note: I'm not saying bots don't exist, just that Mr. 2/4 playing software engineer has more hurdles in the way of proving his point than time and morality.