It's heads up... I raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet

[molawn2mo]

PP 10/20 full I'm pretty sure Flair's at the table though uninvolved in this hand but why he is at this table I don't know because it's pretty bad. I wanted to run myself except for I had great position against Villain who was pretty clueless (worse than his numbers). Villain is 28/1.8/1.63 over only 80 hands

All fold to Villain who open limps from the CO (say no more), I raise with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and only Villain continues

2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
He bets, I call anticipating raising the turn

K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
He bets, I raise, he 3 bets, I fold ??

What say you and why?

If you advocate raising the flop please lay out your plan for the turn when Villain calls the raise.

Thanks for any comments.

Will check back in the morn to follow up.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
PP 10/20 full I'm pretty sure Flair's at the table though uninvolved in this hand but why he is at this table I don't know because it's pretty bad. I wanted to run myself except for I had great position against Villain who was pretty clueless (worse than his numbers). Villain is 28/1.8/1.63 over only 80 hands

All fold to Villain who open limps from the CO (say no more), I raise with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and only Villain continues

2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
He bets, I call anticipating raising the turn

K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
He bets, I raise, he 3 bets, I fold ??

What say you and why?

If you advocate raising the flop please lay out your plan for the turn when Villain calls the raise.

Thanks for any comments.

Will check back in the morn to follow up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quick note. If it is the table I am thinking of, I almost left... but I stayed because just as I was about to sit out my BB I looked around and noticed no one was showing up as higher than an 8% PFR, and the overall aggression was low.

I was in a low variance kind of mood tonight... END HIJACK

[thirddan]

since villains hand ranges is somewhat large, his hand could easily hold either a K or a 2, possibly even a larger pair than you...why not just call the turn and call the river (bet if checked to)? this prevents you from folding the best hand but a bet is still going in on all the streets...

i should also add that this should be somewhat read dependent, but an agg factor of 1.6 is decently aggressive...your read will tell you whether or not he will donk the turn with a 4/hearts/66, or if he will always have a K here...

also, is it possible that he would take a shot at a bluff on the turn and possibly give up on the river?

also, im raising the flop...there are too many cards that could come on the turn and river that will "scare" into missing value or folding the winner, i think that waiting fo r the turn would be better with a bigger pair, maybe QQ+...

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
PP 10/20 full I'm pretty sure Flair's at the table though uninvolved in this hand but why he is at this table I don't know because it's pretty bad. I wanted to run myself except for I had great position against Villain who was pretty clueless (worse than his numbers). Villain is 28/1.8/1.63 over only 80 hands

All fold to Villain who open limps from the CO (say no more), I raise with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and only Villain continues

2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
He bets, I call anticipating raising the turn

K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
He bets, I raise, he 3 bets, I fold ??

What say you and why?

If you advocate raising the flop please lay out your plan for the turn when Villain calls the raise.

Thanks for any comments.

Will check back in the morn to follow up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do the same on the turn.

If I raise the flop, I bet the turn and fold to a check raise. If he donks on the K, I seriously consider folding right there.

On my worst days I call a turn donk bet and the river.

[molawn2mo]

[ QUOTE ]
since villains hand ranges is somewhat large, his hand could easily hold either a K or a 2, possibly even a larger pair than you...why not just call the turn and call the river (bet if checked to)? this prevents you from folding the best hand but a bet is still going in on all the streets...


[/ QUOTE ]

I felt the turn bet was for value as well as for protection. I didn't want villain to see a cheap river and hit his potential 6 outer.

[ QUOTE ]

also, is it possible that he would take a shot at a bluff on the turn and possibly give up on the river?


[/ QUOTE ]

My read was that Villain would never bluff. He was not strong enough nor knowledable enough to bluff; sort of a first level thinker, at best.

[ QUOTE ]
also, im raising the flop...there are too many cards that could come on the turn and river that will "scare" into missing value or folding the winner, i think that waiting fo r the turn would be better with a bigger pair, maybe QQ+...

[/ QUOTE ]

I, in a sense, felt almost exactly the opposite here. LEt me try and explain... bear with me.

First, I had made up mmy mind to bet the turn no matter what card came so I was not feeling as if I was going to miss value.

Second, with QQ, I would need a lot less protecting; this, given that there are only 2 overs to my pair. So 99 needs more protecting, right. What does raising the flop do to protect my hand? Nada. The flop raise looks more like a free card play than a protecting or a value raise. It, therefore, invites a donk and a donk from him invites a raise from me and yeeeeshhhh where am I?

My thinking was against this player, a bad, unthinking player, I could and did easily fold to the turn 3 bet. He would have done better to just smooth call the turn and check call the river.

This was a very difficult hand for me. Should it have been?

[BWebb]

I'd probably call the flop, turn, and river (or bet if checked to). If he's bluffing, let him keep doing it. If he has a 4 you are way ahead, if he has a 2 or K you are way behind. Plus, since he's clueless, he might just 3-bet a worse hand or flush draw and put in you a tough spot.

[BWebb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
since villains hand ranges is somewhat large, his hand could easily hold either a K or a 2, possibly even a larger pair than you...why not just call the turn and call the river (bet if checked to)? this prevents you from folding the best hand but a bet is still going in on all the streets...


[/ QUOTE ]

I felt the turn bet was for value as well as for protection. I didn't want villain to see a cheap river and hit his potential 6 outer.

[ QUOTE ]

also, is it possible that he would take a shot at a bluff on the turn and possibly give up on the river?


[/ QUOTE ]

My read was that Villain would never bluff. He was not strong enough nor knowledable enough to bluff; sort of a first level thinker, at best.



[/ QUOTE ]

This two statements can't coexist. Either you are worried he would hit his 6 outer (meaning he had two overcards and is bluffing) or he will never bluff, it can't be both. IMO, with that aggression factor, he has to be capable of a bluff. Say he only has six outs, the pot isn't very big. I'd rather call the turn and see if I could get him for another bet on the river. Raising can get him to fold a hand with 6 outs, do you want that?

[thirddan]

"I felt the turn bet was for value as well as for protection. I didn't want villain to see a cheap river and hit his potential 6 outer. "

I feel that in this pot getting some value is more important than protection...this pot isn't big and you are heads up...

"My read was that Villain would never bluff."

what do you put him on when he donks the turn? if he is never bluffing and plays straightforward then i don't think you will be ahead here often, and probably shouldn't call the first bet...

you seem to be basing your flop/turn action on protecting your hand, this is not a situation where protection should be your first concern...the pot is small and you are heads up, this is not a situation where your opponent is getting the odds to peel with a small number of outs...the purpose of waiting till the turn to raise is to prevent people from sucking out on the river, in those situations you have to face them with two bets in order to accomplish this, but in a small pot your opponent will be making a mistake to call even one bet depending on what his hand is...

hopefully this is makes sense, its been a while since i posted and im trying to get back into things... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[molawn2mo]

[ QUOTE ]
"My read was that Villain would never bluff."

what do you put him on when he donks the turn? if he is never bluffing and plays straightforward then i don't think you will be ahead here often, and probably shouldn't call the first bet...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, so true. But I felt that by not raising the flop I may have encouraged him to lead the turn (remember, I viewed him as a first level thinker) with his flush draw or underpair and that I would be folding the best hand. So, in order to be certain that I was not folding the best hand, I raised the turn, got re-raised and folded, certain that I was behind.

So the real question is...

1. Did I lose more than I should have in this case, a case where I am became convinced on the turn that I was behind?

2. Had I been ahead, would I have gained sufficient value and offered up sufficient protection to my hand?

I realized that you hadn't posted in a long time. You were one of the first posters that I read with clarity back when I began a year or so ago.

Anyway, welcome back. You are still clear of thought and expression but probably could have chosen an easier post/poster to "get back into it." [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[einbert]

This is fine if you think he frequently has a draw on the flop, and if you think he will frequently check/fold the river if he misses instead of firing again.

I don't think that applies to too many people, but it might apply here.