66 turn decision

[Chris Daddy Cool]

40/80 5 handed at bay101, early wednesday morning crowd

a pretty poor playing player limps utg. a slightly loose,passive,aggressive,tricky but generally good player raises CO. i call on the button with 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. sb folds. decent with probably a few too many leaks calls in the bb.

flop: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

bb checks. utg checks. co checks. i bet. bb calls. utg folds. co calls.

turn: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

bb checks. co bets. whats my plan for all situations?

[Hattifnatt]

Fold..

[einbert]

I like folding here, what makes you think your hand might be good?

EDIT: Eh didn't see your flush draw. In that case I'd likely call and fold the river UI. You describe CO as a solid player so I think he either has the best hand or the best draw (or both) against you now.

[BWebb]

Folding has to be wrong. My plan would be to raise the turn, check behind on the river.

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
40/80 5 handed at bay101, early wednesday morning crowd

a pretty poor playing player limps utg. a slightly loose,passive,aggressive,tricky but generally good player raises CO. i call on the button with 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. sb folds. decent with probably a few too many leaks calls in the bb.

flop: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

bb checks. utg checks. co checks. i bet. bb calls. utg folds. co calls.

turn: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

bb checks. co bets. whats my plan for all situations?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not a fan of the preflop call with 66 here, but at least you're on the button.

Turn puts you in a difficult spot. Being tricky and aggressive, he could be betting a scare card on a bluff or semi bluff. He could have also raised PF with AT/AJ/AQ/AK but chances are he's firing on any flop again...so I'm not sure he has an A here. I can see him maybe isolation raising the weak player with a very mediocre hand like QhJx/JhTx and semi bluffing the turn scare card or even a small pocket like 44/33 with his gutshot, and he could be assuming his 44/33 are good here. When you cold call on the button, he probably doesn't want to bet this flop and get raised by you, as he'll have to release. His best chance is checking through and betting any overcard turn to represent it in hopes that you fold if you have an overpair to his own.

Something smells fishy in the turn bet based on his flop action after a PF raise. So now, your action...you could have the best hand right now but I'd say your heart draw is no good. I think this is a fold or raise spot to take the free showdown and get the value out of your hand on the turn when you have the best of it, while at the same time pushing out any overcards BB might have. The river bet is pretty marginal, as you are only ahead of 44/33 and non-heart, non-ace overcards here. When you raise the turn he'll probably let go of both of those and only call with a flush draw, so I don't see any value in betting any river if you get called on the turn raise.

[shaundeeb]

Why not 3bet PF? You can usually shutout the BB by making it 2 extra bets to him and you can gain control of the hand. I see 66 being the best starting hand and the hand might play out a lot better post flop if you had 3bet instead of just coldcalling. I'm sure the CO respects you somewhat and knows he could be reverse dominated with his overcards on the flop and may fold them. 3-betting also seems like such a good idea since you have position on them both.

[bobbyi]

AviD, wouldn't you expect CO to have bet the flop with 44/33?

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
AviD, wouldn't you expect CO to have bet the flop with 44/33?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily. Overcards are likely to hang around or even raise, and overpairs medium to low are likely to raise as well. Especially CDC acting right after him, whether he knows CDC or what he thinks of his play, I do not know...but a raise is quite likely.

So betting and getting raised gives him no info about where he stands, doesn't necessarily prevent overcards from calling/drawing, nor does it maximize his chances of picking up the pot.

By not betting, he keeps the pot small (and doesn't get raised off his hand) and picks up an opportunity to bluff a better hand out with a turned scare card, and at the same time cut down the pot odds for anyone to consider calling. The A is the perfect card to make this bet, and if he does have 44/33 I think his turn bet is a great one because its difficult for any undercards to the A (KQ/KJ/QJ/etc) to call here (and he can't afford giving them a free look if the button checks through), while at the same time putting alot of pressure on a hand like CDC has. And add to all that, the A (with 44/33) offers a semi-bluff redraw so if he gets called he's now drawing to more outs.

In a 3 way pot, I don't think CO is worried about the flush so if he had an A, he'd probably try to CR it here. Betting the A here is only going to scare worse hands off (or better hands than what you really have). Versus a "mixed" and dynamic player, CDC is really put in a tough spot here because CO could really be betting an A if he is capable of thinking multiple levels down and knows CDC is as well, which is why I feel this is a raise or fold spot...calling seems like the worst option IMO.

[Schneids]

Raise I think it's very likely he has a hand like KhJc or QhJs or something plus just in case he doesn't it's better to try to knock out the third guy who might have a higher heart draw. If not 3-bet check behind on river or call a river bet if flush hits.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

hey avid, i really don't agree with your analysis here. a pocket pair should bet here almost always to protect his hand if its best and to get incorrect folds from overcards. if i raised the flop after him, that's actually one of the best things for his hand as i could easily have overcards here and am protecting his hand for him.