river raise with Q high.

[elysium]

hi everyone

this comes from a hand i played in a good 20-40. the CO bluffs a lot, and also doesn't fold. he will showdown anything. and this hand is showndown.

the MP, a good solid player, bets out. the CO who likes to limp a lot but then becomes aggressive post flop, and who also bluffs a lot, calls, and i call with QJs on the button. both blinds call, and it's 5-way.

the flop comes A, K, X rainbow one of suit. the MP bets, the CO calls, and i call. both blinds fold. the blinds were doing that a lot. it was a fairly safe assumption that the blinds would no wise raise. there was a possibility of a call by one or the other, and that's actually what i was expecting; instead both fold. so it's the 3 of us.

the turn produces an A. so it's AKXA; i check it down. the only card that can help me now is a T.

the river puts 2 pair on board, and it's AKXAK. the X is something like a 3. a low card. the MP checks. as expected, the CO bets, and i raise. the MP folds and the CO calls. my raise was a bluff raise. in retrospect however, it may not have been a bluff raise. that's why i'm posting this one. due to the action; how the hand developed; while i don't consider the river raise so surely a bluff as i did at the time that i made the raise, i don't consider it a value bet either. it was probably a pot odds type raise. i was hoping for the fold-outs, of course. does anyone here think that it may have been a total bluff given the action? how might have this hand been played differently? my image at the time was dangerously unpredictable.

[Manzanita]

elysium,

As long as the CO doesn't have an Ace or King (and given your description of how he plays this appears to be the case) then you have the best hand and should raise on the end.

Since you state that the CO doesn't fold and will show down anything then your raise must be for value (and is not a bluff).

-- Manzanita

[skp]

You have nut no pair and given the action on this hand...that's probably the nuts. A simple call would have been fine as it's unlikely that the CO is betting a Queen (he too would prefer a showdown). Maybe your raise gets the MP out if he rather than the bettor has a Queen (but that's counterbalanced by the possibility (albeit unlikely) that the bettor may have you beat and also by the possibility that the MP may not overcall with a Queen even if you just call).

Overall, I like calling the river and woould expect to win the pot.

[TStoneMBD]

i agree with skp, youre not folding any better hands so just call here.

[SoBeDude]

I like the raise, although I'm probably not a good enough player to make it myself.

It has 2 significant values IMO. First, it might be the best hand against an opponent whom you said 'bluffs a lot'.

Second, it will really help you get paid off on future hands. No matter what happens here, you must show your hand to the table. The next time you raise on the river, you know you're getting called, so it can really help you getting paid on your nect big hand.

-Scott

[Buckshot]

The only reason to raise is to make anyone fold a King, but that strategy fails against your described opponent(s).

Raising because you think you have the best hand is one thing, but trying to bluff your way to winning is another.

Did you lose to pocket threes?

~stephen

[slavic]

Did you lose to pocket threes?

How cany lose to any unimproved pocket pair other than the x? And if you had the x set could you call a raise?

[Buckshot]

You: [ QUOTE ]
And if you had the x set could you call a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not in this situation.

Post: [ QUOTE ]
the CO bluffs a lot, and also doesn't fold. he will showdown anything

[/ QUOTE ]
That was the description of his opponent so I would expect he would call.

~stephen

PS. I was under the assumption that x=pocket 3's, but rereading the post he said that it was low, like a 3.

[Diplomat]

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason to raise is to make anyone fold a King, but that strategy fails against your described opponent(s).


[/ QUOTE ]

The question is not whether or not a king will fold, but whether or not Jx or Tx will call.

-Diplomat

[Buckshot]

Are you suggesting the raise is almost for value here? Like if his opponent is betting with Jx-Tx then he'll call the raise with Jx-Tx? Doesn't seem likely to me.

~stephen