Do you lay this down?

[BeavisChrist]

I've been agonizing over this one since Friday:

Local (Seattle) card room 3-5 NLHE.

Hero ($760)
Villain ($660)

Villain is in the SB, UTG totally wild LAG player raises to $15. I'm MP with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I flat call the $15 as does the button and SB.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB checks, UTG checks. I lead out for $30 (1/2 the pot). Button folds, SB check-raises to $60. I had him pegged as a somewhat reasonable player - but I had seen him check-raise like this several times during the night and take pots down uncontested. UTG folds, I flat call his raise, putting him on AK. $180 in the pot.

Turn comes J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. He leads out without hesitation with $100. I fire back and make it $200. He looks me over and says "I'm all in."

Dealer counts down and it's another $280 to call. The pot has $580 plus his $280 - $860 total.

Comments / suggestions at this point in the hand?

[schwza]

you should lay that down..... if you don't like money.

i'd have raised him all-in with the initial turn raise. if he flat-calls your raise with a heart draw or an OESD (or both), then he's not paying off at all if he misses, but you have to pay him off if he does.

i'm torn on how to play the flop. if he's got a top pair-type hand then calling is good, but if it's a semi-bluff, it's a disaster. but even if it's top pair and not a flush draw, a heart on the turn is still bad b/c it will kill your action. ditto for a 9 and a 4 (that would complete a straight for 78). i think i prefer a reraise on the flop.

there's no way you can fold on the end.

[gcoutu]

call and hope the heart doesnt come to make his A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] flush. I think you were right on the AK and if he does have a bigger set than so be it. The pot odds seem right to call every time here.

[B Mando]

He could easily be in there with AK of hearts like gcoutu stated...He could have KJ...if he has a set of sixes then so be it, That is a pretty quick call, if you didnt call it sounds like you might of been playing with scared money...I dont mean to offend you by saying that, because I used to be that guy, but thats a easy call...I mean, come on, its PRESTO!

[BeavisChrist]

Thanks for the replies. I was there with a friend and had flashed my hand to him while I pondered the call. He thought I was crazy to fold too.

After about five minutes the table was getting a little impatient. I flipped over the set and said "nice sixes".

He pushed his cards to the dealer and said "nice laydown". At that point I knew folding was a big mistake because this guy loved to show his hands (especially big ones). A few minutes later he said "that was a good laydown, I had kings".

I told him I didn't believe he had kings and that I thought I had him beat. A few hours go by and he leaves the room (after loosing every last chip). About 30 minutes later he comes back in, taps me on the shoulder and says "I lied, I had KJ". I said "I know".

It's interesting to me that you guys see this as such an obvious calling situation. He check-raised the flop, then bet big on the turn. I figured he put me on the flush draw and was trying to make it expensive. I kept hearing that voice in the back of my head saying "he's got 66, lay this down."

You're not being offensive when you say "scared money" - that wasn't the situation at all. This game is hugely profitable - I'm up around $3500 in eight sessions (it's only $100 buy in).

[Ionphore]

The reason people are saying this is an easy call is because you described him as lagish. And you only need to be winning this pot around 1 in 3 or 4 times to make this call correct with the money in the pot. Its a clear call because a player like this would make this move with a wide variety of hands, 2 pair/pair plus flush draw/lone top pair. You should have beat him into the pot. You are definately winning this 1 out of 4 times, and against this player you are more likely winning more often then 1 out of 2.

[Bob Moss]

[ QUOTE ]

I flipped over the set and said "nice sixes".


[/ QUOTE ]

While I think your fold was bad, showing it was your biggest mistake.

Bob

[pocketdueces81]

There have only been a few instances where I have layed down a set like when there are four cards to a straight or a flush. Another folding situation is when you have an ignorant full house (Hero holds 55 and board is K Q 5 K Q )

If you are going to lay down a set of fives in this situation then you shouldn't bother playing any pocket pair aside from qq/kk/aa. Better yet, why play any hand thats not the pure nuts. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

What were you hoping to hit with your hand? Four of a kind? Be realistic! Unless you had a solid read laying down is not the right thing to do.

[BeavisChrist]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to lay down a set of fives in this situation then you shouldn't bother playing any pocket pair aside from qq/kk/aa. Better yet, why play any hand thats not the pure nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a damn good point [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I think it's sinking in... bad fold.

[BeavisChrist]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I have seen set over set once in live poker that I can remember, offhand I'd say the odds are 1/64 and that's even assuming the other guy has a pocket pair to begin with. I'd have to have a great read on a player to fold bottom set, especially if he's been check raising a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's interesting... in this cardroom it's not uncommon to see set over set. I was involved in a hand with 55 a month ago where someone else had TT, and someone else had 44, the flop came T54.

This was the first pot over $300 in about four hours of play. Bets of $100 or more don't happen very often in this game, and someone pushing $600 in one hand - I've only seen that maybe twice in all of my time in this game.

Looking back I should have reraised all in on the turn and left him with the decision. I shot myself in the foot by raising the minimum. Giving it some more thought, I think this is what happened: I figured I was going to see another check from him and planned to bet $100. When he bet $100 I didn't think long enough and raised $100 (which basically was my intent before seeing his bet). Had I taken my time here I probably would have pushed to try and take down the $280 pot right there.

[ QUOTE ]
You're getting 3-1 to call with no flush or straight possibility and you want to fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't concerned about the possible straights/flushes - I put him on 66 - it's the only hand I could think he'd play this way. Of course I need to be really sure, and I thought I was about 95% sure he had it.

Again, in a cash game with deep money I should be making this call. Ten seconds after I folded I was upset at myself for making the laydown - I just needed to hear it from a few more people.