KK UTG, very deep stacks

[PennDisc]

I'd appreciate comments on all streets in this hand.

Borgata 1/2 NL game on Friday night. $300 max buy in. I had gotten to about $350 before I doubled up with top set of J's against a guy's KK. Heads up I called $10 from the BB and c/r flop, bet turn, all in on river. Villain is a solid, thinking player, and watched the hand closely. He was fairly tight, and had a good grasp of how to play big/small pots. My table image is tight, and villain knows that I have a fairly good grasp of NL.

At the start of the hand, I had about $830 in my stack, villain had me covered with around $900 or so. Nobody else at the table had more than $400.

I am UTG and open for $12 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. All folds to the villain in the CO who reraises to $37 and then it is folded around back to me. Given that we are the two big stacks at the table and that I know he's a tight player, I could only see him reraising me with AA, KK, QQ. I'm not sure about QQ though - and with AK/AKs I think he'd just call given that he has position on me and it's likely to be heads up (bad assumption?). I don't want to reraise because of 2 reasons: (a) if he has QQ he'll fold and (b) I'll have a tough decision if I get reraised again (or is this not that tough a fold?). I just called.

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Unless he has A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], he can't be on a draw, based on my read - and I don't think he has AK anyway. I check and call his $35 bet.

Turn: (J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Anyone just check and fold right here? I decide I want to get to showdown cheap, and I am fairly certain that villain puts me on a mid-high pocket pair here. He would have expected me to reraise preflop with KK so I think he's got me on TT, JJ, QQ, 2 of which he's losing to. So I don't expect to get raised although I equally don't expect him to fold. I bet $65, which he calls.

River: (J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
OK, a heart was the worst possible river card. Now I'm not even ahead of Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Qx, and I'm not tied with the other KK either. I think about putting a blocking bet out there, but he'll call with the Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], he'll probably fold QQ without a heart, and he'll raise with the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] - so that doesn't help me. I decide to check. Villain bets $100. What now? I think for about 3 minutes and decide that he probably doesn't bet without the A of hearts. He saw me think about betting the river, and probably puts me on the Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or a set of J's. But if he doesn't have the A of hearts, I might have it, and he won't want to be checkraised given the stack sizes unless he's on a bluff which he can fold. If he has the only real hand that I can beat (QQ without a heart) I believe he'll check behind for the free showdown. So I fold.

Anyone think I played the whole hand kinda weak? If I had the K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I probably throw a bet out on the river and fold to a raise. Against anyone else at the table, I probably would have reraised preflop, but given the stack sizes, this villain was the only one that I didn't want to see a reraise from. I might have been tied at best before the flop. While he probably doesn't put me on KK based on my play, that doesn't mean that he didn't have me beat on all streets. Any suggestions?

[theben]

you should bet the flop and find out what is going on. since he reraised you preflop and hes a good player, hes going to bet on the flop almost regardless of what comes. so checking gets you nothing. if you intend on calling this flop, you must bet instead. get some info and take the lead. once you bet, how he plays the hand out changes so i dont really know what to tell you after that. if you get raised you should put on the brakes. possibly call if you think hes got QQ, but ask yourself if hes really likely to reraise preflop with QQ and then reraise your bet on the flop with QQ.

[TennLawyer]

I would have bet the flop to define your hand. I would have made a bet of 2/3-3/4 the pot to make sure he would pay to draw out with AK of hearts. If he raised this bet, then I would probably give up the hand right there. A call from him is just as scary given your description of him, and I would probably check-fold on the turn (second choice would be to make a $150 bet).

By checking on the flop, there is no way you could gather any more information than you had pre-flop. He is going to bet the flop after a check even with nothing if he is good.

Also, you might want to consider if you had been moved off a hand during the session. He might perceive you to be a little passive if that had happened and if he is good he will remember how much it took to move you off your hand. If that is the case, then AK or JJ is possible from him.

All in all though, under the circumstances as they were, your fold on the river was correct. My guess is that you were up against the ace of hearts and either another ace or a king.

[ATbx22]

well i got to say this was an interesting read...

UTG raise shows strength and him reraising u is scary, but if that was me, i would like to put u on a hand so i might even reraise u even with and up to AKs( and hopefully take it down and take u off that AK/AKs u might have raised with, and fold to a reraise or course with my JJ and QQ).

I dont agree with just calling pre-flop, u dont get anyinfo to what he may have. With a reraise ur not to be mess with. (Also someone that good and has position on u sucks and if he folded his QQ to ur reraise so be it, u got a few chips from him already. There seems to have been plenty of fish for the both of u, no point biting each other)

Checking on the flop was extremely weak, i dont like it. The only reason i would have checked is for Check-Raise, to show even more strenth. Whats the point of calling on a scary flop like that?, yea it is scary u dont have a heart and ur not sure what he has.

Turn- Finally u put alittle presure on him with a bet, but him calling the bet may show he has a heart. Not sure what the villain may have been thinking.

River- i think the check was also weak, yea that heart sucked but u let him off to easy, betting may have made him fold that Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and put him on a tough position if he had the K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] of course u fold to a reraise...

overall i think u did play this had alittle passive, but it was an interesting hand... hopefully u had a overall good day...

(i would love a review of my review)

[parttimepro]

Consensus is to define his hand better on the flop. I think the best way of doing this is to c/r to 100 or so. This shows a lot of strength, and if he calls or reraises, you can know you're behind. He saw you c/r with a set before, so depending on how tight he is, he may put you on JJ or TT and fold his AA here. It may also be worthwhile to sack it up and follow up the c/r with a bet out on a blank turn (not a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]).

For the flop, I think C/R > Bet > Check-fold > Check-call.

On the turn, I like your bet out, but you should make it more than half the pot. I think his call definitely means he has a big [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Definite fold on the river.

[PennDisc]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont agree with just calling pre-flop, u dont get anyinfo to what he may have. With a reraise ur not to be mess with. (Also someone that good and has position on u sucks and if he folded his QQ to ur reraise so be it, u got a few chips from him already. There seems to have been plenty of fish for the both of u, no point biting each other)

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing about reraising preflop is that I hate the idea of getting reraised again. It makes for a very tough decision holding KK out of position. Considering the stack sizes and my position, I guess I could put in the 3rd raise, and fold to a 4th raise? I'd lose about $100. But the downside is that given that I'm defining my hand as KK or AA, he may decide to just call and trap with AA. I've got 3 more streets where I'm going to act first, and he's going to know that he's at worst tied with the other AA. Considering our deep stacks, he might just be content to let me fire away on each street and I could lose a lot this way.

[ QUOTE ]

Checking on the flop was extremely weak, i dont like it. The only reason i would have checked is for Check-Raise, to show even more strenth. Whats the point of calling on a scary flop like that?, yea it is scary u dont have a heart and ur not sure what he has.


[/ QUOTE ]

With the deep stacks, I decided that I wanted to play a small pot. Check-calling a small flop bet allows me to do that out of position. I'm either way ahead or way behind.

[ QUOTE ]

Turn- Finally u put alittle presure on him with a bet, but him calling the bet may show he has a heart. Not sure what the villain may have been thinking.


[/ QUOTE ]

Here's where things get tricky - I wanted to play a small pot given that I was way ahead or way behind. But with the 3rd heart hitting, and me not having one, I might not be way ahead anymore, and unfortunately, I still could be way behind, drawing to 1 out (non-[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K). I wanted to see a showdown cheap, and I think he would pressure me with a big bet here with any of the 3 hands I think he has (AA, KK, QQ). So I make a moderate bet that I'm fairly certain he can't raise (with a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] he doesn't want to reopen the betting, and with no [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] he wants to go to showdown too).

[ QUOTE ]

River- i think the check was also weak, yea that heart sucked but u let him off to easy, betting may have made him fold that Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and put him on a tough position if he had the K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] of course u fold to a reraise...


[/ QUOTE ]
If he has an overpair with no heart he's folding to a bet, and checking behind if i check (which is what I want). He may even check behind the K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] because with the stacks so deep and the 2nd nuts if I happened to checkraise the river it'd be VERY uncomfortable. Betting for value is out of the question. Getting him to fold the Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is going to take a fairly large bet, one that I don't really want to make at this point. I'm basically on a bluff on the river, as I can't beat any conceivable hand except for QQ no heart. Check-folding the river seemed prudent as I think he's taking the free showdown with most hands including some that beat me. Calling $100 in a $300 pot seemed silly when all I could beat was a bluff. I considered betting and folding to a raise, but then decided that since I was essentially just bluffing, it wasn't a good idea.

[ QUOTE ]

overall i think u did play this had alittle passive, but it was an interesting hand... hopefully u had a overall good day...

(i would love a review of my review)

[/ QUOTE ]

It was a very passive play, but given the stack sizes I thought at the time it was the best way to get him to put money in when I was ahead and for me to lose less when behind. The final board made it so unlikely that I was ahead that I bailed. It still ended up a pretty good session though. And I'd still appreciate any more comments, especially to my responses here.