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#11
11-26-2005, 03:07 PM
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Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] standard. [/ QUOTE ] Ahh but it's not. [/ QUOTE ] I don't know why you try to make it into a genius play. I would fold in the same situation. Run some calculations on your equity after a tight raiser reraises another tight raiser and your jacks are not worth playing. [/ QUOTE ] Why must every single thread on these boards turn into a pissing contest? I'm not bragging, I'm not showing off, I'm not trying to make it into a "genius" play at all. It was a situation that came up where I would almost always hit "raise" in the past, or at *least* call and hope to spike a set, particularly since I could be in against two AKs. I don't know many players who would lay down JJ in this spot, even though it is a situation specifically addressed in HFAP and the equity is relatively easy to figure out. It's a group 1 hand, those don't come around two often, and I was facing two pretty aggro and relatively loose players. Sure, it's probably still right play to lay it down, but how often do you actually do it? Until that hand, I never had. If that means I suck in your eyes, so be it. I thought it was a hand that people could maybe learn something from, or think about a little. It wasn't my intention to start a war with the annoying pricks on here who can't let a post go by without flaming it or assuming that the poster is just another dick out to brag about how awesome he is. That was never my intention. [/ QUOTE ] No intention of starting such a war. When you denied it was standard, it sounded like you thought there was something extraordinary with it. It is standard. 
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#12
11-26-2005, 03:12 PM
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Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] standard. [/ QUOTE ] Ahh but it's not. [/ QUOTE ] I don't know why you try to make it into a genius play. I would fold in the same situation. Run some calculations on your equity after a tight raiser reraises another tight raiser and your jacks are not worth playing. [/ QUOTE ] Why must every single thread on these boards turn into a pissing contest? I'm not bragging, I'm not showing off, I'm not trying to make it into a "genius" play at all. It was a situation that came up where I would almost always hit "raise" in the past, or at *least* call and hope to spike a set, particularly since I could be in against two AKs. I don't know many players who would lay down JJ in this spot, even though it is a situation specifically addressed in HFAP and the equity is relatively easy to figure out. It's a group 1 hand, those don't come around two often, and I was facing two pretty aggro and relatively loose players. Sure, it's probably still right play to lay it down, but how often do you actually do it? Until that hand, I never had. If that means I suck in your eyes, so be it. I thought it was a hand that people could maybe learn something from, or think about a little. It wasn't my intention to start a war with the annoying pricks on here who can't let a post go by without flaming it or assuming that the poster is just another dick out to brag about how awesome he is. That was never my intention. [/ QUOTE ] No intention of starting such a war. When you denied it was standard, it sounded like you thought there was something extraordinary with it. It is standard. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think it is. I think perhaps it's theoretically standard, but it's a play that almost never gets made.
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#13
11-26-2005, 03:18 PM
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Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it is. I think perhaps it's theoretically standard, but it's a play that almost never gets made. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, because most players fail to adjust to their opponents. I haven't played 50/100, but I would guess the game is so tough that this is a necessity to come out a winner (no universal winning strategy).
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#14
11-26-2005, 03:32 PM
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Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
This really is quite a standard play.
Against those opponents from EP/MP positiong raising and 3-betting I don't see how why you would want to play JJ there. I also don't understand the distinction you are trying to make with 'theoretically correct'. And I definitely don't understand your point about it being a play that you 'hardly ever see made'. TAG-gish 2+2'ers would make this play against those opponents all the time I would suspect. Since they aren't open-folding their hands so that everybody can see them how does one claim that it's a play you hardly ever see made? It's pretty standard...and the 2+2'ers here are agreeing that it's standard...and you are getting defensive about it because nobody seems to think it is as great a play as you thought.
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#15
11-26-2005, 03:38 PM
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Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of ...
no chance id fold JJ here, so there you go. at least someone disagrees
2 aggressive MP raisers who you have position on, and you want to fold the 4th best hand in the game? [censored] that. cap it up
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#17
11-26-2005, 03:46 PM
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Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
Hmmm, I know you two last responders are good players (much better than me), so please elaborate on how the cap is good (I might end up learning something from this contentless thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). I just don't see the value of it.
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#18
11-26-2005, 04:00 PM
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Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
now that you mention it.....
I played a limit tourney (PPM semi's) a couple weeks ago. I get JJ in MLP. Loose guy UTG+1 raises, 2+2'er in UTG+2 makes it 3-bets. I fold my JJ but right-away I didn't feel too good about it. You see, I was just looking at the 2+2'er who 3-bet it....wasn't thinking that he was just iso'ing the loose guy (who I wasn't paying attention to). To be results-oriented about that hand: flop came undercards. and i think the board stayed low throughout. The 2+2'ers TT holds up against LAG's unimproved AK. Even before learning I would have won I knew I made a mistake. easily worth playing if I had considered the LAG. but in the OP's hand, neither of these guys are super-duper loose raisers or anything and I would fold JJ unless I had some kind of read that contradicted the stats.
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#19
11-26-2005, 04:03 PM
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Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, I know you two last responders are good players (much better than me), so please elaborate on how the cap is good (I might end up learning something from this contentless thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). I just don't see the value of it. [/ QUOTE ] PFR 11 raises MP1. This is AT+, 77+, KQ, sometimes QJs. PFR 9 3 bets. This is TT(maybe even 99 or 88!)+, AQ+. I have position. I will flop an overpair or a set 60 percent of the time. I play better than my opponents. I can't only cap aces and kings or my opponents will know I have aces or kings in a game with a relatively small player pool. People raise and three-bet more lightly in bigger games. That's my explanation. -James
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#20
11-26-2005, 05:33 PM
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Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of ...
I am not really sure how you can get away from this hand preflop unless you know for sure you are up against AA-QQ. This is a no doubt cap for me. In the long term this hand will make plenty of money in situations such as these. You gotta be in it to win!
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