What did I do right and wrong here?

#1 08-16-2005, 03:16 PM

Villian is a well-known multitabling rock at 10-20 and 15-30. 12.5/7.8 over 470 hands.

1.53 overall AF, but it jumps to 2.33 on the river (though I did not have this infomation at hand when I played the hand, I only knew he was a rock with a 12.5% VPIP).

Edit: He respects my play, so his range of 3-bet hands is limited here. Something like AQs/AJs was not even a possibility, imho.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP3 3-bets, 4 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

River: (8.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

callmedonnie · #2 08-16-2005, 03:22 PM

I call the three bet here PF sometimes too when I'm HU, up against a good player, and I want to disguise my hand a little. Since he's a rock, if I've been playing at him lately I would cap but no problems there.

His three bet range is probably thin. KK-tens, which we kill, and AK. I doubt AQ, but you were the one at the table. Anyway, I am going to get aggressive on flop for value and to define villain's hand. I would probably c/r. I definitely would not c/c.

When you c/r turn and he just calls, and then raises river I am getting scared of Kings. I don't think that river changed anything. He might have AK, and I am paying him off.

I really hate the check/call on the flop. I think a more aggressive line there w/ a lead on turn would have been better. The way I see it, we are lucky that rock has a monster hand that we are way ahead of. Let's get some of his $.

#3 08-16-2005, 03:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I call the three bet here PF sometimes too when I'm HU, up against a good player, and I want to disguise my hand a little. Since he's a rock, if I've been playing at him lately I would cap but no problems there.

His three bet range is probably thin. KK-tens, which we kill, and AK. I doubt AQ, but you were the one at the table. Anyway, I am going to get aggressive on flop for value and to define villain's hand. I would probably c/r. I definitely would not c/c.

When you c/r turn and he just calls, and then raises river I am getting scared of Kings. I don't think that river changed anything. He might have AK, and I am paying him off.

I really hate the check/call on the flop. I think a more aggressive line there w/ a lead on turn would have been better.

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Why would I check-raise a rock on the flop to define his hand when I know I am ahead of it?

I am not trying to be flippant, I am just trying to clarify. Let's say I CR him and he's on AK--he'll go away, which is not what I want. If he's on KK he might reraise once or he might fear aces or a set and shut down, which is also not ideal.

I am *way* in front on the flop heads-up against someone who doesn't give a lot of action but who will almost certainly see a showdown and will certainly bet the turn (unless I blow him off of AK on the flop). I don't understand why I would not wait until the turn to get an extra bet on a big street. If he has KK and hits his two-outer ... well that's poker. But it should not change the way I attempt to extract bets, because that is really what this hand is about, isn't it?

shant · #4 08-16-2005, 03:36 PM

I don't like checking to a rock on the turn. We're pretty much hoping he has AKo here because otherwise he's checking behind or has our hand owned. I think I'd just rather play this straight-forward this time. This is a lot like your play last time except I believe you were up against a more aggressive player who would put in a lot more bets than a rock will, regardless of how much you disguised your hand.

I'm just capping preflop and betting and raising against this guy.

HolyBejeesus · #5 08-16-2005, 03:37 PM

What Donnie is saying is that you missed some bets. If he had KK, you could get more out of him by bet/calling the flop and bet/3betting the turn, or using an alternative line. And he is right.

#6 08-16-2005, 03:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What Donnie is saying is that you missed some bets. If he had KK, you could get more out of him by bet/calling the flop and bet/3betting the turn, or using an alternative line. And he is right.

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I'm sorry but that's fuzzy thinking. Yes, that line might (might) get me an additional bet out of KK, but it loses bets to AK and QQ/JJ at mid limits. This is because people tend to give an EP raiser due credit for big pairs at those limits, and a rock like this guy will turtle if I make the utterly obvious move of calling the flop and donking the turn. And if I CR the flop I am in an even worse position to extract the max.

If I tailor my line to only KK, I am not playing against the villian's range of hands, which is what I should be doing here.

Again, I am not trying to argue, but I sometimes find that the critiques on here are unsound. I think, for what it's worth, that the possible mistakes I made here were not re-raising the river and not leading the turn, though I am very unsure about leading the turn when I know he'll bet that card even with QQ/JJ.

#7 08-16-2005, 03:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like checking to a rock on the turn. We're pretty much hoping he has AKo here because otherwise he's checking behind or has our hand owned. I think I'd just rather play this straight-forward this time. This is a lot like your play last time except I believe you were up against a more aggressive player who would put in a lot more bets than a rock will, regardless of how much you disguised your hand.

I'm just capping preflop and betting and raising against this guy.

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If you're capping PF against a player like this in this spot you are losing a LOT of bets when he folds AK or shuts down (or even folds) 99/1010/JJ against your flop bet/reraise. A *lot* of bets.

As I said, I am not sure I like checking to him on the turn either. If he has AK, he'll raise and I get to reraise right there (with the nut flush draw as a backup against KK). It's a very debatable part of the hand.

shant · #8 08-16-2005, 03:51 PM

This guy is folding AK,99,TT, or JJ to one flop bet and checking the turn is a good idea?

Edit: Sorry, just read the rest of your post. I don't mind calling preflop for deception but I don't like checking twice. I prefer bet/3-betting the flop. Since we under-represented before the flop, if he raises the flop and we 3-bet he's going to have a hard time figuring out what we have and may call down with the other big pairs. What do you think of that as an extraction technique.

Evan · #9 08-16-2005, 03:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
the possible mistakes I made here were not re-raising the river...

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Either your read sucks or this idea sucks.

#10 08-16-2005, 03:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This guy is folding AKo,99,TT, or JJ to one flop bet and checking the turn is a good idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just edited to include flop reraise.

If I cap preflop is changes the entire tone of the hand and will affect what he does on the turn. You are implying that he is so weak tight that he will check behind with many hands on the turn and I will have whiffed. This is only true if I cap the flop, in most cases. Please don't take comments out of context. My comment about him folding those hands was directed to specifically the scenario where I cap preflop.

When I don't cap preflop, then the turn check isn't as dangerous, as I am pretty sure he'll take another stab at it even with QQ/JJ. The turn check is possibly suboptimal for other reasons, as I have stated (i.e., if he has AK I lose a bet, if he has KK, I am CRing with the worst of it and about to get re-raised, and I might blow him off of QQ/JJ with a CR).