A few questions because I hate this hand. - Page 2

Altaslim · #11 11-07-2005, 07:22 PM

Yes it is hard, but if hero check raises mp1 and makes two players call two cold there's the potential to get them off a 9.

#12 11-07-2005, 10:07 PM

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I'm not thrilled about the PF cap, but even worse in my opinion is the check/call on the flop IMHO. I may try the c/r to get a free card on the turn if I go unimproved. As the turn came down, I have no problem letting go of this.

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I cap preflop for two reasons:
1) I want UTG and UTG+1 to fold and alot of people are folding when it's 2 back to them.

2) I probably have the best or second best (with A and K outs) hand right now and there's likely alot of dead money in the pot so why not let them pad it?

As for the flop check/call what can I do? If I raise the field is getting 8.5:1 plus alot of implied odds considering preflop action. How can I possibly fold with a pot this big? Also how likely do you think I am to get a free card on the turn being the first to act against a large field? I can see getting away from this on the turn but it's still a large pot and I haven't seen anyone able to break down the odds.

Perhaps breaking down the odds on the turn is too complicated to be done simply. If it were to assume a HU situation it would be easier to calculate the odds that I'm up against AK, TT-QQ,KK, or AA and the pot odds needed to continue. The fact that this is multi-way against opponents likely to be holding (because of the preflop cap)pocket pairs, Ace high, King high, or overcards to the flop makes this calculation highly speculative depending on what you percentage you assume your opponents hold one or more of you outs. Perhaps I ask a question that has no good answer.

#13 11-07-2005, 10:53 PM

I think check-raising the flop might be your best action, but as you played it, I think I would check-fold the turn.

The pot is definitely huge, but in a large field, your hand is almost certainly behind, if you bet the flop, you have little chance of having anyone fold. Check-raising might get A5 or K7 to fold, but I doubt it. Unfortunately, you have no backdoor draws, there is a siginificant chance you're reverse dominated now (by those same people playing Ax/Kx). I think you have a strong enough hand that you can't fold, so try and knock people out and buy some outs if you can.

On the turn, I think your hand sucks. If there were one or two opponents you might bet to try and win it, but that's just not happening here. I would think a check-raise behind you is certainly a possibility as well. The pot is big, but I don't think you have enough of a hand to continue.

Folding the river is pretty standard, I think. One person waking up and another calling, overcalling is just spewing.

#14 11-07-2005, 11:09 PM

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I think check-raising the flop might be your best action, but as you played it, I think I would check-fold the turn.

The pot is definitely huge, but in a large field, your hand is almost certainly behind, if you bet the flop, you have little chance of having anyone fold. Check-raising might get A5 or K7 to fold, but I doubt it. Unfortunately, you have no backdoor draws, there is a siginificant chance you're reverse dominated now (by those same people playing Ax/Kx). I think you have a strong enough hand that you can't fold, so try and knock people out and buy some outs if you can.

On the turn, I think your hand sucks. If there were one or two opponents you might bet to try and win it, but that's just not happening here. I would think a check-raise behind you is certainly a possibility as well. The pot is big, but I don't think you have enough of a hand to continue.

Folding the river is pretty standard, I think. One person waking up and another calling, overcalling is just spewing.

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I like check-raising this flop too.

Is there anything to be said about this line: call flop, c/r turn given that a scare card does not come out. Waiting until the turn to c/r when a scare card doesn't come out might be more effective at protecting even though you only have 1 out to go and, seeing as MP3 was the 3-better, it's likely he's not betting a 9.

Not sure what the paradise 1-2 games are like, but in a perfect world this might get you a free showdown ...

#15 11-08-2005, 01:18 AM

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My name is Jeff and I'm weak-tight. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[ . . . ] I bet the flop, fold to a raise [ . . . ]

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This is a truly terrible flop line. Both betting and folding to a raise are just awful.

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If you check the flop and it then there is a bet and a raise, are you calling two or folding here?

TomBrooks · #16 11-08-2005, 01:48 AM

You overplayed it preflop OOP and on the turn when you should have folded. You could have folded the flop if the pot wasn't so big that it made it worth calling with almost any two cards.

Felipe · #17 11-08-2005, 03:00 AM

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Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG+1 posts a blind of $1.
Hero raises, UTG+1 (poster) calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 3-bets, 4 folds, SB calls, 1 fold, Hero caps, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, SB calls.

Flop: (21 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (13 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

River: (18 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, SB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 20 BB

Anyone think we can be good here 1/20?

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*grunching*

PF:
I don't like to cap unsuited AK UTG with a huge field like this. It makes for nastiness later on. I'll call and see what develops. Against such a field, top pair won't win as often (as against a smaller field) So think AK is strong here, but it is weakened by so many other players in. I call the 3 bet preflop

FLOP:
c/c is good. Betting won't improve your situation, and i think the majority of the time (my opinion, but i think its true mathematically anyhow against such a big field) someone has you beat here. c/c call is good, hope to hit an A, K and bet if one hits the turn.

TURN:
15:1 is juicy, but you're not drawing to a boss hand! You're only tring to spike top pair, and it might not be clean. We can worry all day about reverse dom. or be up against a two pair etc, but i lean towards folding here. The board is drawy, and a top pair might not even win the pot here. I fold.

RIVER:
Ya. This blows. But i call just to stay sane. OOPS! on second thought...i fold cause someone just donk betted the river into a huge field. He likes the river, i don't! FOLD.

**Insteresting. MP1 FOLDED THE RIVER...

#18 11-08-2005, 04:14 AM

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**Insteresting. MP1 FOLDED THE RIVER...

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Yes I found that very interesting too, I guess he had AK.

But as for the cap preflop out of position I really wanted to drive out UTG and UTG+1 preflop because I too do not like AKo against a large field.

I still think the chances folding these two players (or at least one) by forcing them to call 2 cold is worth an extra sb. This pot is going to be huge whether I flat call 3 bets or cap. Capping gives me the possibility of taking this flop 3 handed instead of 5 handed. (Sb isnt' folding for one more no matter what).

Also by my interpretation of SSH it isn't a bad thing to punish these players for limping preflop. Only myself and MP1 have done anything but call so I can expect to win more than 1/5 times here even offsuit.

Do you disagree? With what? The chances of making UTG and UTG+1 fold? or with what I say about punishing the limpers and winning more than 1/5 times here?