Am I weak?

Losfer · #1 09-28-2004, 10:43 AM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

MP1 (t3860)
MP2 (t3060)
MP3 (t1935)
CO (t1960)
Hero (t1240)
SB (t1095)
BB (t1400)
UTG (t3515)
UTG+1 (t2550)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, 1 fold, MP2 calls t30, MP3 calls t30, CO calls t30, Hero calls t30, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t240) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (8 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets t30, UTG+1 raises to t90, MP2 folds, MP3 calls t90, CO folds, Hero raises to t400, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls t310.

Turn: (t1160) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero checks.

River: (t1160) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: t1160
Main Pot: t1160 (t1160), between MP3 and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (t1160).

Results in white below: 
MP3 has Kh 8c (one pair, kings).
Hero has Js As (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins t1160.

fnord_too · #2 09-28-2004, 11:25 AM

Nothing wrong with checking it down here. You do give any club a chance to beat you on the river, but TP Second Kicker is nothing to write home about on a high card draw heavy board.

Raising the flop is questionable. This is a very dangerous board. With 8 players (!!!!) I would have a hard time believeing that AJ is taking down this pot. I think you need to raise this to about 200 pre-flop to clear out the rif raf. Everyone is looking for a cheap flop here, a pre-flop raise should take down the pot or at least get you to HU. If you don't raise pre flop, you are really hoping for more than TP. I'm astounded that you got this to HU with your bet and that someone with K8o called you. (Put a big "Value bet at every opportunity against this guy" note on him!) On hands like this, with flops like this, you really don't want to get involved. This is kind of a tough spot, with a huge underbet and underraise in front of you. I probably either call or muck the flop, there are just too many ways AJ is losing here or will be losing by the river, and you can normally expect some draws to call you early in tournies (never played at stars, but at party, ub, and royal vegas you can expect some weak calls here.)

There is no way I'm putting any more money in after the flop, turn makes a flush possible and river makes the straight (though the fact that you have one of the jacks makes the straight a LITTLE less scary). Also, with all the connecting cards two pair is a very real possibility.

You got lucky you only got one flop caller and that your hand held up. BTW, not only are you behind any bigger aces or two pair on the flop, but there are several draws that are favored over you here.

If your stack was deeper, I dislike the flop raise less, but 1/3 of your stack is really too much to fire at this flop.

Losfer · #3 09-28-2004, 11:42 AM

Thanks for the great response, it was very educational. I didn't raise preflop, because I don't feel to proud of ace jack (should I be?). On the flop I felt that if I was ahead that I need to get rid of the flush draws, which is what I figure the min bet would be. I also figure AK/AQ to raise preflop. I was worried about two pair, which is why I slowed down.

Sounds like I was passive when I should have been aggressive, and then aggressive when I should have been passive.

fnord_too · #4 09-28-2004, 01:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't raise preflop, because I don't feel to proud of ace jack (should I be?).

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually a lot of limpers means a lot of weak hands. I will raise with any two a lot of times here if I am not short stacked. There is nothing wrong with calling, it's just that in multi-way pots, you really need a strong flop to feel comftorable with AJ. In any case, if you raise with AJ or any two and face a big reraise, you have to lay down the hand, which is why just calling is ok too. (If you are in trouble, it is usually the first limper who will have the big hand. Limp reraising is a common ploy with big hands, but if you have a big hand and someone limps in front of you, you really want to raise because even aces are a dog to the field in comunity pots, and over limping encourages comunity pots. Aces will still win more than their fair share, but even if they win 3 times their fair share in an 8 way pot they still lose 62.5% of the time. So, the only one you are really worried about when you raise here is the first limper, if a late limper reraises, that is a very suspicious bet.)

mrjetguy · #5 09-29-2004, 08:29 PM

I would say that you are very weak PF. Raising AJs PF when there are a bunch a limpers is a must IMO. However, I think that you checks on turn and river are ok.

DONTUSETHIS · #6 10-01-2004, 05:19 PM

I think hat anyone who had you dominated- AA, KK, QQ etc, would have already raised this pot. Some of the people in late position could have also been tempted to limp with total junk because of the huge pot building and the high implied odds that they are getting if the flop hits them very hard. Also by raising preflop, you run some of the junk off and make it very hard for someone who limped in middle position with 66 to call a huge raise. I think it is important get these hands out. These hands could spell disaster for you if the flop hits both of you. Just my thinking, I am not the best poster by no means, but just my thoughts. Good luck in the future.

SossMan · #7 10-01-2004, 05:28 PM

This is a great spot to punish limpers preflop. I would jack it to about t200 preflop. That would have made the rest of the hand a little easier to play, IMO.

I like the flop raise.
I think you need to push on the turn. You only have t810 left and giving a cheap club to someone would be disasterous. If they have a club flush, good for them, next tourney. I don't think you should be letting one pair hands off cheaply here. He called two flop raises, so he clearly likes his hand somewhat here. It means either a pair or a flush draw. Since a pair is more likely than than the flush draw, and you cannot fold if he bets into you on the river anyway, you may as well push here in case he's drawing.

patrick dicaprio · #8 10-01-2004, 06:24 PM

when someone calls your flop raise you have to be a little worried. however one thing that shoudl lead you to believ you are good is that the hand was unraised so it is unlikely AQ or AK are out there. but when a third club comes i dont see how you can play strongly here I would behoping to check it down for free.

Pat