Pump the flop or wait...

#1 07-30-2005, 02:21 AM

I like waiting. Even though the turn card is scary, I'm still protecting my hand (if it's best). Let me what you guys think:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 3 folds, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Button caps, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (24 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Button bets, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (15 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Button bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Button calls.

River: (21 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 24 BB

mikeyvegas · #2 07-30-2005, 02:23 AM

Pump the flop, you have the TPTK and the Kc.

jskills · #3 07-30-2005, 02:24 AM

I like raising on the flop vs this many opponents and the board being two flushed. You can thin the field and get heads up vs button (who BTW the hand was played I'm putting on kings).

The line you took looked like it worked for you, but I'd prefer it more if it were used in a heads up situation.

ArturiusX · #4 07-30-2005, 02:50 AM

Why protect your hand? Why not make weak aces pay for calling down with only 4 outs? Why not make mid pockets pay for being donks?

You only wait for the turn when a lot of cards can hurt you on the turn, not AK on a normal board.

#5 07-30-2005, 02:52 AM

The motivation behind my line wasn't to slowplay.

The pot on the flop was 24SB. Raising the flop won't protect my hand against gutshots, two-pair trip draws, and obviously a flush draw or an OE straight draw will not fold.

If I raise the flop, the pot will be around 20BB, now in addition to gutshots and pairs, a pocket-pair will have the odds to play for their set when I bet the turn.

Waiting till the turn and hoping my opponent bets so I can raise him and force out weak draws gives me the best opportunity to win the pot.

I value bet the river, since my read was KK as well and the other player would call with a pair of deuces in a pot this large.

ArturiusX · #6 07-30-2005, 02:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]

The pot on the flop was 24SB. Raising the flop won't protect my hand against gutshots, two-pair trip draws, and obviously a flush draw or an OE straight draw will not fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

And somehow raising the turn will?

Dopey · #7 07-30-2005, 02:56 AM

With that big of a pot it is very hard to really "protect your hand".

I think the pot is big enough to want to start getting people out on the flop. You really don't want the turn to give anyone a draw (KJ would probably easily fold to you flop raise but is almost correct to call the gutshot on the turn after you raise getting 9-1 + implied on the call) plus with that many callers you really don't know what turn cards are good for you.
Also, while you like your hand you don't know if your good. raising now gives you a little more info if the action gets really crazy on the flop potentially saving you bets on the turn/river.

Just my thoughts, I can't really see a reason to slowplay (even though you claim your not slowplaying). If I am missing something please let me know.

Dopey
[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

#8 07-30-2005, 02:59 AM

Because they are not making a mistake by calling with weak Aces or gutshots or even a pocket pair. If I raise the flop, 2, 3, and obviously 4 outers are correct in calling a flop raise.

I'm not focusing on winning more bets, I trying to maximize my chance to win the pot.

Waiting till the turn is the only way you can do that.

Check out the examples is SSH, "When the pot gets extremely large."

Jake (The Snake) · #9 07-30-2005, 03:07 AM

I like the way you played it. This hand has a lot in common with the hand from pg 163 from SSHE.

Your opponents don't think about implied odds, they don't think about odds at all. They are much more likely to fold to a turn raise.

Also to the OP, I don't think it's good for you to be putting him on KK. It's a very reasonable hand for him to have, probably the most reasonable, but you should be thinking of a range he could have, not just one hand.

#10 07-30-2005, 03:08 AM

With my opponent's bet on the turn, there was 16BB in the pot. With my raise, the pot is 18BB, an opponent with a clean gutshot is now making a marginal call, and he might be inclined to fold since the board is suited; opponents with 2 and 3 outs are now making a clear mistake if they do call. Raising the flop and betting out the turn accomplishes very little besides letting your opponents draw to longshots for the right price.