KQo (Bet flop, get popped. Bet turn, get popped)

ElAnimal · #1 06-08-2005, 10:50 AM

UTG+1 looks like a LAG (69/9/2.8) after 20 hands or so. So far he's played any pair very fast. BB is LAP (super passive).

My plan was to just call the flop raise so I could lead the turn against the LAG, likely facing the BB with two cold again. Anybody three-bet the flop? How do you guys play the turn?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, 7 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (3.33 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, BB folds, Hero calls.

River: (8.66 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.66 BB

einbert · #2 06-08-2005, 10:51 AM

Looks like a good plan to me.

Depending on what LAG will raise this turn with here, I might just three-bet it.

brettbrettr · #3 06-08-2005, 10:53 AM

Against a LAG I'd 3 bet the flop and probably lead the turn even if he capped. I'd slow down from there.

crunchy1 · #4 06-08-2005, 11:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
My plan was to just call the flop raise so I could lead the turn against the LAG, likely facing the BB with two cold again. Anybody three-bet the flop? How do you guys play the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's a fine plan under 2 conditions:
<ul type="square">[*]If BB would've folded on the flop you would've 3-bet[*]You're 99% confident that UTG is going to raise again on the turn[/list]
Here's what I don't understand about your line:

You're leading into the LAG on the turn assuming that you've got the best hand and you're expecting him to raise. Why didn't you 3-bet?

ElAnimal · #5 06-08-2005, 12:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You're leading into the LAG on the turn assuming that you've got the best hand and you're expecting him to raise. Why didn't you 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was reading this post, I'd wonder the same thing. My reasons might not be very strong, but here's the truth:

The three to the straight scared me a bit. He was loose enough that I couldn't rule out A4, 64s or a little two pair combo (plus the rare pocket 3s, 5s or ducks). Since the chance of him holding exactly these hands is so slim, I still would've three bet, but he had shown a consistent timing tell with his betting (if he had a strong holding he insta-bet, if it was questionable he paused for a few seconds). He insta-raised the turn. I don't usually put much stock in online tells, but he hadn't strayed from it and he was weak enough (almost 70% VIPIP) not to realize opponents could read him.

cjhellm · #6 06-08-2005, 12:29 PM

I think you played the flop right, but missed a 3-bet opportunity on the turn. If he'll cap the turn, I'd slow down on the river. If he just calls, I think you can bet the river again.

S_Perry · #7 06-08-2005, 12:34 PM

Raise preflop, play faster on the flop and evaluate on the turn. If I'm calling the flop raise it's to checkraise the turn, but usually when the turn is HU.

crunchy1 · #8 06-08-2005, 12:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
consistent timing tell... I don't usually put much stock in online tells

[/ QUOTE ]
I put NO stock in online timing tells... but that's for another thread...

[ QUOTE ]
he was weak enough (almost 70% VIPIP) not to realize opponents could read him.

[/ QUOTE ]
20 hands is not a real read. It tells you a little about how he's been playing the last couple orbits and his play has been LAGGY. This is an easy 3-bet and call down a cap.

I think you missed my point though...

You were expecting Villian to raise the turn. How can you lead into him expecting that and then after he does exactly what you expected him to do - back off and go into call-down mode? There's conflicting thoughts vs. actions here.

You played him like a champ - used him and his tendencies to protect your hand. After that you need to go into value mode and 3-bet. Otherwise the protecting your hand was for nothing. You might as well just have check/called down after the turn and let BB draw to few-to-zero outs and pad the pot for you in case your TPGK was ahead.

ElAnimal · #9 06-08-2005, 01:04 PM

Thanks for the advice. My primary reason for looking to get raised on the turn was to eliminate the BB, so I'm not sure just calling the turn raise totally conflicts with my original plan. The raise was as much to make it heads up as it was for value. But I understand your point that I am still so likely ahead (and the value is so high) that a re-raise is in order.

crunchy1 · #10 06-08-2005, 01:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the advice. My primary reason for looking to get raised on the turn was to eliminate the BB, so I'm not sure just calling the turn raise totally conflicts with my original plan.

[/ QUOTE ]
Let me ask you this then: Why did you want to eliminate BB?

[ QUOTE ]
The raise was as much to make it heads up as it was for value. But I understand your point that I am still so likely ahead (and the value is so high) that a re-raise is in order.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think you actually do understand my point though - beacause it's not really about value. Let me try another way.

If you can lead into the LAG expecting him to raise then you must be doing it thinking that you're ahead in the hand. If you CAN'T 3-BET the LAG you must think that you're behind in the hand. So my question to you (and I think it illustrates my point) is: Why would you lead into the LAG - KNOWING that you're going to be putting 2BBs into the pot on the turn and drawing to 0-3 outs?

I think answering those two questions will help you clear things up. (I hope!)