K9s on the button - Page 2

Aces McGee · #11 08-31-2005, 01:38 PM

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is a flop 3 bet better than that flat call?

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I am glad you brought this up. I was afraid that the flop decision would get lost since I continued on to the turn, but I hate "street by street" posts. I hope that your mention of a possible three-bet will spark some more discussion. There are quite a few advantages to one, I think.

-McGee

chief444 · #12 08-31-2005, 01:43 PM

You're reading a lot into UTG+1's flop raise acting right after SB IMO. This could very well be another weak K or even a Q and sometimes a draw. Depending on the river I very well may take a free showdown if given the opportunity but I think you're reading a lot more than you should into one flop raise. Also, as Rico pointed out there are some hands SB may hold that we really like to fold out here.

sean c · #13 08-31-2005, 01:51 PM

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You're reading a lot into UTG+1's flop raise acting right after SB IMO. This could very well be another weak K or even a Q and sometimes a draw. Depending on the river I very well may take a free showdown if given the opportunity but I think you're reading a lot more than you should into one flop raise. Also, as Rico pointed out there are some hands SB may hold that we really like to fold out here.

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Your probably correct UTG+1 flop raise shouldn't have us seeing monsters we probably have some fold equity and are going to put two more BB's into this pot anyway. The down side to this is getting three bet by either player. What would your river play be UI? I guess the question becomes how often do we get three bet vs get a free show down.

chief444 · #14 08-31-2005, 01:55 PM

If you get 3-bet you can fold the river unimproved without hesitation IMO. Worse hands arean't 3-betting here. I don't think we get 3-bet often here.

peterchi · #15 08-31-2005, 02:04 PM

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You're reading a lot into UTG+1's flop raise acting right after SB IMO. This could very well be another weak K or even a Q and sometimes a draw. Depending on the river I very well may take a free showdown if given the opportunity but I think you're reading a lot more than you should into one flop raise. Also, as Rico pointed out there are some hands SB may hold that we really like to fold out here.

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Why don't we 3-bet this flop then?

chief444 · #16 08-31-2005, 02:07 PM

It's an option. I don't think it's terrible. I'd consider all 3 options on the flop actually. But we have a much stronger hand on the turn than on the flop.

hobbsmann · #17 08-31-2005, 02:20 PM

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is a flop 3 bet better than that flat call?

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I am glad you brought this up. I was afraid that the flop decision would get lost since I continued on to the turn, but I hate "street by street" posts. I hope that your mention of a possible three-bet will spark some more discussion. There are quite a few advantages to one, I think.

-McGee

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3-betting the flop is a viable option in my opinion. The fact that sb is leading this flop is no suprise as he was the preflop raiser and still has a very wide range of holdings that don't include a K. Lets say UTG1 knows this and thus his flop raising standards are now increased and he could very well be raising a Q, a straight draw, or even a worse K than you. This pot is large and worth fighting for so by 3-betting you might get SB to fold gutshots and single Aces incorrectly and increase your chances of winning unimproved.

While I just outlined an argument for it, I'm not too convinced a 3-bet is best, but I think it does have some merit and would be interested in other's opinions.

thejameser · #18 08-31-2005, 02:42 PM

when a pot gets this big you need to make plays to maximize your chance of winning it. you guys know this. also, increase your expectation on at worst a 4-1(assuming you need the flush to win)shot if they are calling anyway isn't so bad either.

Argus · #19 08-31-2005, 03:05 PM

I like the flop call and turn raise. If PFR has a hand that hasn't hit like AJs or ATs, or even AQ this raise cuts his odds significantly. If you call he will get 12:1, but if you raise he gets 6.5:1 and can no longer call profitably with the hands mentioned. You are not unlikely to be behind UTG+1, but you aren't certain to be and you have plenty of outs to pull ahead of even a worst case hand like KQ. Folding SB just has too many advantages when many hands in his range can call profitably when you don't raise.

Aces McGee · #20 09-01-2005, 09:25 AM

I considered all three options. Without the backdoor flush, this could very well be a fold. But I think I have too much hand to not continue here.

Raising has merit. I'll likely be able to see a showdown for one SB less, if I want it. Or, if I'm convinced I'm behind, I'll get to see two cards to improve for just an extra small bet -- well worth it.

The problem with raising the flop, though, is that I forfeit my opportunity to face the SB with a double big bet on the turn. If I raise the flop, I'm laying him 20:2, which isn't enough to get gutshots to fold. If I wait until the turn to raise, I can give him something like 13:2. That'll fold gutshots, and while I anticipate many will disagree, I think our (UTG+1 and mine) combined aggression is enough to get the SB to fold AK some portion of the time. That's a huge coup for me.

This specific turn card is a perfect one to raise, because getting 3 bet isn't a disaster since I have those flush outs.

Thanks for the replies so far. Additional thoughts appreciated, as always.

-McGee