ATs UTG

BiffMan · #1 02-10-2005, 12:50 PM

There's a side story to this hand and the outcome that I'll save for later in the thread in order to not cloud everyone's judgement on the hand, but please tear into me and let me know how this went...

Have only been at this table for 2 orbits and don't have any previous data on either player involved. Table's running moderately loose with 5-6 seeing most flops and PT shows BB as slightly tight-passive and MP2 as slightly loose-passive.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, MP2 folds.

River: (6.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

Final Pot: 14.75 BB

davelin · #2 02-10-2005, 12:55 PM

I'd consider raising the flop.

crownjules · #3 02-10-2005, 12:57 PM

I would have raised the flop with an OESD, BDNFD, and two overcards. On the turn your BDNFD becomes a NFD, so I'd raise again. Call down any 3-bets.

River is standard.

QTip · #4 02-10-2005, 12:59 PM

Until I get a feel for how this table responds to a PFR, I'm going to limp in UTG PF with this BSB...unless you had already seen that 2 or more will cold call regardless...I hate to see all the PF folders you had there. Hey...why does it say that there are 4 players when I only see three.

I like the way you played postflop...would have done the same.

TwoShedsJackson · #5 02-10-2005, 01:03 PM

I limp preflop without plenty of solid reads. I raise the flop, probably call the turn, river is obvious.

BiffMan · #6 02-10-2005, 01:28 PM

As far as the PFR goes, that was based on likely too blind of a following of the SSHE loose starting guidelines. I thought of limping there, but wasn't sure. Do you limp with that from UTG+1 as well? With no particular reads, where would be your cutoff for raising with that. I'd seen at least a few occasions of cold calling in the couple of orbits I'd been on, so wasn't hoping to blast out the field like what happened.

On the flop I agree that the hand was pretty strong and if it hadn't been bet to me, I'd have led out, but I was afraid a raise would have scared MP2 away. I was hoping that by calling MP2 would stay and BB would lead out on the turn. Should I not worry about overcalls on the flop with only one person to act behind you, or is that not even really an overcall situation?

On the turn, basically the same reasoning. I'm quite happy with the draw potential, but again didn't want to scare MP2 (make him face 4:1 odds instead of 7:1our or shut down BB. Other than MP2 folding, it went as I was hoping, but should I be jamming more money in on the flop and turn regardless of whether it's going to cause the one person behind me to fold? Given that it was a smallish pot, I wasn't sure how aggressively I should proceed.

(Oh, and the 4 players is due to one person going all-in for $.75 pre-flop)

QTip · #7 02-10-2005, 02:08 PM

In a loose game where cold calling is going on, you should raise UTG. I would raise regardless of game MP and LP.

BiffMan · #8 02-10-2005, 05:45 PM

Thanks again for the responses and feedback! The amusing part of this one is what happened after this hand.

Results in white below: 
BB has Th Js (straight, king high).
Hero has Ad Td (flush, ace high).
CO has As 4d (high card, ace).
Outcome: Hero wins 14.75 BB. 

BB proceeds to blow a gasket and makes a few friendly comments over the course of the next few hands:
(Next hand begins)
FriendlyHelper: what an idiot
FriendlyHelper: what are you chasing?
FriendlyHelper: good lord
FriendlyHelper: i apologize for giving you any kind of credit as a decent player
InnocentBystander: who are you fussing at?
FriendlyHelper: numb nuts in the #1 seat
FriendlyHelper: giving his money away
(Next hand begins)
FriendlyHelper: what
FriendlyHelper: you folded?
FriendlyHelper: you could hit runner runner
FriendlyHelper: call you idiot
FriendlyHelper: why not?

Then I have the following straightforward hand (is capping pf too much for AKo headsup?) which FriendlyHelper ducks out of pre-flop:

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has 2s 2c (two pair, kings and twos).
Hero has Ad Kh (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 9.25 BB. 

And afterward, a few last parting comments:

FriendlyHelper: i can't play anymore with this idiot
FriendlyHelper: idiot chases 16/1 odds
FriendlyHelper: i'm outta here

Then a little chat follows with the rest of the table about what the heck was up with that person, etc. Anyway, was amusing, but actually shocked and upset my wife a bit. I'm starting to teach her how to play (yes, blind leading the blind I'm aware, but we have fun) but she's not had alot of exposure to random aggression from strangers/fools so had to talk her down out of jumping in and getting into a flame war and point out to her how an OESD, backdoor nut flush draw, and two overcards on the first hand was a smidge better than 16:1 on the flop and to just ignore the ravings of a frustrated would-be table coach.

Anyway, all irrelevant to the play of the first hand, but thought I'd share a semi-amusing anecdote.

CubsFan915 · #9 02-10-2005, 05:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
FriendlyHelper: what an idiot
FriendlyHelper: what are you chasing?
FriendlyHelper: good lord
FriendlyHelper: i apologize for giving you any kind of credit as a decent player
InnocentBystander: who are you fussing at?
FriendlyHelper: numb nuts in the #1 seat
FriendlyHelper: giving his money away
(Next hand begins)
FriendlyHelper: what
FriendlyHelper: you folded?
FriendlyHelper: you could hit runner runner
FriendlyHelper: call you idiot
FriendlyHelper: why not?

<snip>
And afterward, a few last parting comments:

FriendlyHelper: i can't play anymore with this idiot
FriendlyHelper: idiot chases 16/1 odds
FriendlyHelper: i'm outta here

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely classic! Sounds like a guy who knows JUST enough about poker to be dangerous to himself. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

detruncate · #10 02-10-2005, 08:24 PM

PF is fine. When deciding whether to raise the flop, I'm thinking about a few things:

1) Whether it will be a value raise.

An OESD + BD flush draw + Ace might do it with 2 callers, but I'm just as happy getting an overcall given that it's slim at best and I'll most likely be losing money on every additional bet I have to spend if I knock out the cat behind me. We need 12+ clean outs to value bet this HU.

2) Is it worth going for a free card?

I don't like it here. The board is coordinated, and Villain is likely to either 3-bet or stop and go if the board hit him hard or he thinks you're on overcards. The possible negative consequences are almost certainly enough to outweigh the 1/2 BB we'd save part of the time. In other words, we probably lose more the times it doesn't work than we stand to gain when it does.

3) Whether it improves my chances of winning if I pair.

Will I knock out a better Ace often enough to make this play? Will he fold a gutshot for 2 bets but not for 1? With a bigger pot and/or more people to act it's often a good idea to play aggressively with draws. I don't like it nearly as much here.

I'm happy with the flop call. I don't think it's a clear value bet and the other benefits don't seem likely to significantly improve the situation.

Raising the turn makes even less sense. You're not taking down the pot, and you don't have enough equity to raise for value.

Nice hand.