6/12 hi/lo

I would like to know how people feel about how bad i played this hand. I limp utg with A2dd3cJh, there is a raise and a 3 callers in fromt of me so i also just call. there are 4 people to the flop. it comes out 6h 8d Jc, i check flop intial raiser bets gets raised other folds i just call also. so now there is 3 to turn. comes a 9d. i now have nut low and nut flush draws. i check initial better bets other calls i raise and both just call. river comes a Jd. i check initial raiser checks and the other guy bets i just call and the initial raiser raises, the other guy just calls and i fold for for ONE more bet. i folded 12 dollars into a pot around or a little over 200. the guy who raised had a K high flush. now im not sure but when the board paired on river i was thinking i was saving a bet to a full house. i know the raise with K high flush was dumb but it worked. He seemed like a tool who didnt understand the game but do you all think Im the toolshed who doesnt???

[lighterjobs]

well, you are most likely beat but you only have to call one more bet. this might be a good laydown if you had someone behind you who could reraise, but i think you have to call here. with so much betting preflop you have to think there is at least one low draw out there who could be trying to buy the pot. villian could also be checkraising with three jacks. anytime you are getting ~16-1 odds to call one bet with a strong hand like an ace high flush, you have to call imo.

thanks for the quick responce...i knew i was a dumbass

[Wintermute]

[lighterjobs]

i was playing in a 9/18 game the other night with some decent players. in one hand the board read AKQJ with three suits on the turn and it was three handed with around ~10 bb in the pot. first position bets out (he was on my left and from what i've heard a good player) and second player raised and the third player called. the original bettor thought about it for a while and shows me KKTx and folds!! wtf was that? the river brought a ten and the raiser scooped the pot with AKxx. is it just me or is this a terrible laydown on the turn for one more bet with 15 cards to fill up his full house and broadway or is this guy on another level of poker genius and is too good for himself?

i would have to say that laydown was worse then mine. he folded the second nuts with a trips and was getting about 10 to 1 on his call. i think i would have called for sure there. i dont feel quite as bad anymore.

[Buzz]

No Clue - A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? Nice starting hand. From UTG I probably limp and then re-raise with it.

Then I probably directly bet the flop.

But although I probably would have played the first two betting rounds both differently, and except that I probably wouldn't have any damned idea about what cards my opponents held here if I played it the same as you, I think you played fine.

On the third betting round, I would not check-raise. I can see leading, and that's probably what I would do, depending on what happened on the previous betting rounds. With the betting on the first two betting rounds as you've described it, I almost surely would lead but then just call if raised. It should look a lot like you have the nut straight when you raise here. One major problem is the original bettor may actually have the nut straight, and in that case may re-raise. But you do gain deception from your raise. That could either work to your advantage or disadvantage on the river.

You don't really have anything (but prospects) yet. You're probably folding (I would) to 18/44 cards on the river. Another 17/44 cards get you half, a quarter, or a sixth of the pot. Another 2/44 cards, J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], might scoop, but also might simply cost you another big bet on the river. Disregarding straight flush possibilities, 3/44 cards scoop for you and 4/44 cards are probably good for a scoop or 3/4 (or 2/3).

Assuming your opponents will both call on the river if you make one of your draws, you're getting 4 to 1 full pot implied fresh money odds for your raise, 3 to 2 half pot implied fresh money odds for your raise, and 1 to 4 (not good) quarter pot implied fresh money odds for your raise. If only one of your two opponents calls on the river if you make your draw, it's even worse for you.

(-1)*18/44 = -18/44
(+.4)*17/44 = +6.8/44
+(??)*2/44 - (??)*4/44 = ??
(+1)*3/44 = +3/44
(.75)*4/44* = +3/44

I don't know how to figure the third line above, and maybe I should be more optomistic about the second and fifth lines - but the best I can figure it, you end up with a negative e.v. for your raise - and that's giving the raise the benefit of the doubt.

Normally I like raising on the turn. I like it a lot. I especially like raising on the turn when raising on the turn increases your chances of scooping. But although I'll agree your raise is deceptive (representing the nut straight), I don't think you increase your chances of scooping much here with the check-raise, and in terms of value, it definitely comes up short.

However, your check-raise on the turn was not as bad as your fold on the river - not even in the same ball park.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
wtf was that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lighterjobs - Well phrased.

Buzz

i see what you are saying by how bad the bet was on the turn but i was trying to get some value for having both the nut high and nut low draw. at least if a high diamond hit i was scooping the pot which there was only 3 outs for that to happen which would be about a 6% chance to hit on river. that would have been ideal. if a low card comes i will then at worst have a quarter, or half the pot. and if a low diamond hits i would at worst have 3/4 of the pot. i was trying to get value for my hand on the turning knowing i could get 3 more gets in before the river. I am risking 2 bets if i miss but am also getting 5 to 1 on turn by putting 1 more bet. also by building a pot players are less likely to fold hands on the river becasue they just want to see it and waste another bet with a two pair or a low set. or in this case a lower flush draw. thanks for your information it was very useful, i appreciate it.