flop call or flop caca?

[mike l.]

what do you think of this:

i am in the big blind w/ 7c4c. utg (okay player, not particularly tight) raises, he's cold called by 2 fish and one okay player in the cutoff, i call in the bb.

the flop is Qc6d4h. i check, utg bets, fishies call, cutoff raises. i think and count the pot. i think about whether utg will reraise (vibes and a quick glance give me the message he will just call) and i know the fish will call. so i call. what do you think?

plays out this way (and i think it's relevant to whether i should call the flop; can you see why?):

utg does flat call as well as the 2 fish guys.

the turn is a 5. checked to cutoff who bets, i call, utg folds, 2 fish call.

the river is a 7. i bet, fish fold, and cutoff calls. my two pair is good.

[Herb N.]

Unless I havent analized this hand correctly.I think your call of a double bet cold on the flop is terrible.you flopped the bottom pair.4/7....flop Q64..What did you expect to hit a [23to1] 4???.A 7? puting a straight possibilty?? I dont know,but I'm always eager to learn TELL ME. [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] HFPWC!

[vkotlyar]

I think that its a good play. There is 110 in the pot preflop, and another 100 on the flop, giving you a 10:1 on your $40 call, assuming the UTG doesnt reraise. He prob had AK, JJ or 1010. You probably have 6 clean out, plus some backdoor str8 potential. So your call gives you 8:1, and you are getting 10:1 to call.....Assuming that noone has made a set, i think that its an easy call since you dont even need to include implied odds for your call to be correct. Considering implied odds, its an easy call for sure. Your fishy opponents play bad, and they will pay you off nicely if you hit your hand.
--vitaly

[elysium]

hi mike
not crazy about the pre-flop. you have the correct odds on the flop to call given your read. you want passive and 15-1 or so odds so you like the over-calls, don't like any raises here.

here's where i don't follow, the turn. you have picked a one card draw and have correctly checked. when the CO is checked to and bets, you must grab hold of the possibility that he is betting because of weakness shown by the checks to him, capitalize on your position, and raise. you also have a pair; another good reason to raise. you must also get the gut-shots out. remember something very importantly here, o.k. i'm not grammatically correct, but do remember that the gut-shots in the hand are correct to call your bet because of the implied action they will receive from your one card draw. also, you may not be done yet with the CO. this is an excellent opportunity to reraise his reraise if he reraises! your not considering your possible 4 bet. and yes you will bet out on the river and show-down.

if you miss and get beaten here mike, your good to go for the rest of the night; ain't no one gonna mess with you. and if they do, they have the goods. i like hammering here on the turn.

[mike l.]

"i like hammering here on the turn."

ive given up on this long ago, it just rarely ever works. i sometimes run a turn semibluff raise but it has to be in a situation where i have a better chance of closing out a better hand. in this hand im not folding the cutoff's pair of Qs given the size of the pot, the obviousness of the draw on board, and the fact that no one respects anyone's raises around here.

you make a good point about the gutshot draws that might be in there but i think since i will get their overcalls on the turn anyways, sometimes with very very little, i lose very little long run by not shutting them out and cleaning up my outs. the bottom line is im behind in this hand and just looking to get lucky and draw out w/ good odds, so it's not like im protecting the best hand.

[mikelow]

A flop call. And I like your blind defense.

[bobgreen]

I believe it is appropriate to play when the pot offers a slight underlay for two reasons:
Some opponents, who are not cognizant of the pot odds that almost justify your call, will think you are a dummy; and
Other opponents, who are not cognizant of the pot odds that almost justify your call, will be encouraged, in future action, to try longshot draws because you have shown that it is OK to do that.
Bonus reason: The guy you beat might go a little tiltish

[andyfox]

You're going to end up with the best hand here about 20% of the time. To achieve this, you're going to have to get to the river. Given that you're probably going to be able to do this for just one more big bet after the flop, and that there are fishies involved, I think the flop call was correct.

The 20% comes from two dimes if you're against J-J, 8-8, Ac-6c, and A-Q.

[Tommy Angelo]

"plays out this way (and i think it's relevant to whether i should call the flop; can you see why?):"

I think so. Isn't this one of those prognostical retroactives? To whatever degree you can anticipate

1) getting to draw on the turn for one bet

2) getting good odds, made good partly because

3) you can count on getting paid off if you hit

then remaining in until the turn becomes less bad. Put another way, give me the right opponents and I can justify anything.

Tommy

[mike l.]

"1) getting to draw on the turn for one bet

2) getting good odds, made good partly because

3) you can count on getting paid off if you hit"

add two more: 4) cause ill value bet something like 2 pair on the river on a 4 straight board and 5) the cutoff will pay me off on scary board with one pair.

so that's 5 good reasons to call the flop. can you give me 5 good reasons why you said "Put another way, give me the right opponents and I can justify anything." (in other words, flop caca).

and 1) position 2) position 3) position 4) position 5) position doesnt count.