since we're rationalizing god...

[snorer]

let me prefix this post by saying I'm not religious. I was raised Catholic but needless to say I haven't been a follower since I was a kid. I've approached god, etc logically since, but the biggest thing that keeps me from being a full-blown atheist is this picture I took around 7 or 8 years ago

a little history:
a distant uncle of mine was diagnosed with cancer, and as it normally happens when a distant relative gets sick, everyone in the family got much closer and really religious. We all took a bus ride up to Flushing Queens, NY, for a rosary prayer vigile they had/have in a field right next to Met's Stadium. Anyway, the big phenomena there was that you could take Polaroid pictures of the immediate sky, and you would see really vibrant lights in your pictures, that of course weren't visible with the naked eye. If I recall correctly they were ONLY visible with Polaroids too (although I could be wrong about that). Streams of dotted lights (as to resemble rosary beads), some of which even made shapes... outlines of the Virgin Mary among other things. An older lady came up to me and asked me if I'd like to take a picture, and I did. Sure enough, crazy shaped bright dotted whitish-yellow lights all throughout the air. People had booklets and photo albums chuck full of these pictures, it really was amazing. Here's a few I found online:









Unfortunately, I don't have a place to host the picture I personally took. No worries though, I only have a digi pic of the Polaroid in a picture frame so it isn't all that visible anywho.
Now, I can say for certain there was no visible equipment or anything like that that could be generating these lights. I don't even know if there is a known technology that is capable of doing that. But for the sake of this discussion let's give me the benefit of the doubt and assume these lights aren't say, artifically broadcast through the sky during these vigiles. If these lights aren't man-made, what kind of rational explanation can we come up for them?

I don't know much about photography, is there a reason why they would only come up in Polaroids? (just to repeat, I'm not positive that's true... but I do think I remember it being the case)

Catholicism is obviously a relatively "new" religion, and any person who looks at it historically can see it's very developed and processed so to speak. I for one am a subscriber to the saying "today's religion is tomorrow's mythology". If these lights are genuinely "spirital", why would the followers of a religion, which has obviously been arbitrarily created by man (ie, very distant from the "core" it's based on), be "blessed" with experiencing this? In other words, if this is a sign from God, why is he picking Catholics of all religious types to see this? Are we to believe Catholics just lucked out with the guessing game of god and somehow got it right? I want the odds on that happening from Sklansky.

Or maybe these are just semi-physical manifestations if you will of imaginative thought, which leads me to why I posted this here in the first place. Images in the heads of people who believe so strongly, they're projecting thsee images out, and instant picture developing cameras are somehow able to capture what our eyes can't. If this is the case, I think it might really lend some credibility to and help us rationalize some controversial psych theories, such as telepathy.

Looking forward to hearing what you guys think

[TStoneMBD]

ive never heard of this but im very impressed. i will definitely have to take a drive down there and experience this for myself as i live within range.

if you have the image on your computer you can upload it to www.imageshack.ws

as for the lights, it may be an act of god, it may not be. id be very interested in seeing what the scientific reasoning is for these lights.

however, do not be surprised if these lights are not at all an act of god but are just some sort of natural phenomenon.

i was watching a documentary on tv a few weeks ago, which were about the aurora lights. aurora lights are best seen at the polar areas of the planet. at night the sky will change colors, from greens to reds to yellows. a swooping pattern will be seen.

most people thought that there were some sort of divine intervention causing this. however, scientists have recently discovered that the aurora lights are created by plasma beams sent by the sun. as they enter the earth's atmosphere they create these wild colors.

these lights can be seen in certain areas all over the world, but again they are best viewed near polar coordinates.

here are some pictures:

google images of aurora lights

[David Sklansky]

"most people thought that there were some sort of divine intervention causing this. however, scientists have recently discovered that the aurora lights are created by plasma beams sent by the sun. as they enter the earth's atmosphere they create these wild colors."

What amazes me is the fact that even though more and more phenonomen are explainded by scientists, some people don't see that as overwhelming evidence that the remaining unexplained stuf has a scientific explanation (even if we never find it).

[Hermlord]

Snorer,

I am doing my best to avoid these debates (finals week, you know) but I want to get this off my chest. (Everything, as always, is just my take on it).

Science and religion are not in conflict. They exist to serve different purposes. Science is the search to explain the natural world; how it works and what it's properties are. Religion is the search for meaning in that world.

Meaning is a function of consciousness, not a physical phenomenon. An analogy: almost everyone has experienced love. Maybe love is a function of pheremones, the urge to procreate, whatever. It doesn't matter because "love" is not a biological process, it is your experience of that process. Although it can and probably has been/will be correlated to biology, that will never capture the experience of the conscious agent of love.

Meaning is similar. Religion, spirituality, whatever are the search not for "proof" of God, but for the authentic and genuine belief that life has meaning. Again, meaning is something you as a conscious being give to experiences; it is not a physical property.

I agree that much of organized religion is silly. All power structures are corrupted by those in charge; most people are too obedient to doctrine; supernatural explanations for physical phenomena are usually (always?) incoherent. None of that matters. True Divinity has nothing to do with those things. As to your photos, there is 0 doubt in my mind that there is a scientific explanation. And that has 0 impact on my spiritual convictions.

OK, I could go on but schoolwork beckons. do with this what you will.

[snorer]

Hermlord,
I'm not looking to make a case for or against religion. The reason for my post was to hear some speculation as to how these lights could be scientifically explained. Not to say a scientific explanation or lack thereof would be a credit/discredit to religion/science, I'm just genuinely curious to hear the possibilities, specifically from people knowledgable in physics, psychology, and/or photography. Like I said, if we're dealing with some kind of psychic image-projection then it could be a first step in explaining telepathy, among other things.

In hindsight maybe my post was worded a little weird and I got a little too carried away with the religious talk, I was just trying to dismiss the idea that these lights are a spiritual miracle so we could discuss scientific/psychological reasons for them instead of circle jerking over religion.

[snorer]

Like I said, not all that visiible... but... yeah

[sleight]

This is a photographic effect, nothing more, nothing less.

This happens when you have a camera that will hold the shutter open for longer than 1/30th of a second, longer than the amount of time a human hand can hold a camera still. So you take a shot of seemingly nothing, while the camera compensates by creating a large aperture (hole) for a long time. The miniscule lights have time to burn brighter on to the film, and the lack of steadiness will produce the streaking or trails that you see. If anyone took a camera and steadied it on a tripod you wouldn't see this effect.

If you need more photos of angels and whatnot I’ve got plenty to see from the time I took pictures of jumping jacks on the fourth of July. PM me for prices.

[sleight]

sweet nutrolls! .... he's dancing with an angel

[snorer]

yeah, but jumping jacks produce light, whereas nothing here does. It's not like people are snapping flicks at streetlights, there would need to be a source of light to "drag", no? These are just pictures of the open immediate sky above an open field, with no lights. Unless I misunderstood your post... but even if that is the case, it doesn't account for why such a high percentage of pictures taken there during vigiles have this effect, as opposed to somewhere else. I literally saw thousands of pictures. Surely it can't be just something as common as a photographic error or this would be happening to people elsewhere as frequently as it happens there.

There's also pictures like this from the scene, which may just be a blend of two stills into one, I'm not sure I'm qualified to tell...



and then pictures like this...



that last one especially I have a hard time chalking up to shaky hands...

[NotReady]

I really am trying to retire for a while but you keep tossing up the softballs.

[ QUOTE ]

What amazes me is the fact that even though more and more phenonomen are explainded by scientists, some people don't see that as overwhelming evidence that the remaining unexplained stuf has a scientific explanation (even if we never find it).


[/ QUOTE ]

What does God think you would do with a if miracle He showed you?