What is two pair good for in limit Omaha Hi ?

[Tom Bayes]

I think your hand is a 27 pointer according to Hutchison's Omaha Hi point system. He says you need 28 to call. In any case, this is a very marginal hand to play preflop and you are playing it to hit a straight or flush, not two pair (esp. top & bottom pair).

The chance that aces & fours will win a showdown umimproved in low stakes limit Omaha is pretty small. I'd be checking that flop and hoping to hit something better on the turn.

[willmay3]

Dear BigAsses:

Regarding this specific hand:

1. As a general rule, Top and Bottom pair is a VERY marginal hand that gets even more marginal the more players that are in. Heads up it is very solid, against two it is like middle pair in HE, against 3 its like bottom pair in HE, and against 4 or more it is similar to 4 high in HE [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

2. As I said, Top and Bottom pair is a marginal hand ESPECIALLY with 5 players seeing the flop and ESPECIALLY with the flop texture as it is. The reason being that the most obvious hands for people to be betting in this matter are:

KKxx
AAxx
4 Broadway cards including the AK which yeilds top two pair.

So, you are probably in world of hurt at this point. Betting this flop would be obscene as there is absolutely NO WAY you have the best hand at this point.

3. Even in some parallel Universe where you DO have the best hand, you are easily outdrawn on this flop and could even be a statistical underdog against a big wrap such as:

T :h: J :h: Q :c: 9 :c:

That is a very likely hand to have capped the betting with.

4. Someone might argue that with the pot so big, though, that you should check and call 1, AND ONLY 1, bet. This is because it is about 15 to 1 to hit 1 of the non heart 3's and the pot is laying you 20 to 1. If you hit the three you have the nuts.

They believe that the other 25% give makes up for the fact that you are highly susceptible to redraws. By that I mean that you are VERY likely against a set and some sort of flush draw, and perhaps the same or better straight draw. This last one seems very unlikely to me, but one must consider it.

However, I think that this thinking is VERY flawed when we consider what the turn will look like.

Even if you hit your miracle three, with one card to come I think you must now dodge the following cards.

The other 2 Aces (Let's not kid ourselves and think this gives us some chance at winning the pot)
The other 3 Kings
The other 9 hearts
The 4 J's
The 4 Q's
The 4 T's
The other 2 2's
The other 2 3's
The other 2 4's (Let's not kid ourselves and think this gives us some chance at winning the pot)
The other 3 5's
The 4 6's

This is 39 of the cards left of the 46 unseen cards in the deck! You could draw your miracle and STILL be a 5.25 to 1 Underdog.

Now, true, all those outs are probably not out there against you. But, it is not so wild to think that 30 of them would be. In fact, it might even be probable if 3 or more people call on the flop. Add to this that you are VERY likely behind right now, you will probably be behind on the turn EVEN if you hit your card, you may be tied on the turn EVEN if you hit your card, and you are VERY unlikely to improve after you hit your miracle while your opponents are very unlikely NOT to improve.

It doesn't get any worse than this in Omaha.

Having made the mistake of calling a capped preflop bet it is wise now to cut your losses and just fold.

Regarding, Limit Omaha in general and whether you should play, I'm going to disagree with a couple of posters here. I think this is a very fine game, ESPECIALLY at the limits you are playing, because:

A. The swings are definitely bigger in this game than any other because of how close the hands run in value and because of the MANY, MANY redraws after the flop. You go from Favorite to BIG Dog very quickly in this game.

However, what better place for the novice than here in the .25/.50 land. I mean a big swing is like $40. Who can't afford that short term?

2. Long term, assuming you are a competent player who plays solid cards solidly, you will DESTROY any game that routinely has 75% of the players seeing the flop. By building hands like Top set, Top Two pair, Nut flush, and big wrap around straight draws, you will, about twice an hour, have the entire table drawing very nearly dead against you. True, you will get sucked out on, but there you go. It happens.

There is no other game, limit, where there are so many horrendous players as Limit Omaha.

3. That said, if you are calling a capped preflop betting with the hand you describe above, then you might want to reconsider playing this game for now [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] You MAY be the fish, as it were. I'd suggest getting Bob Ciaffone's Omaha Hold 'Em Poker and follow his recommendations religiously.

Just some thoughts. Let me know, all of you, if you think I am off base here. But, I think I'm on pretty solid footing.