How to compete with a maniac?

[Lin Sherman]

You folks are obviously more familiar with these Foxwood games than I am, so I can't argue with some of the points you made, especially about the general approach to playing those games. However, the advice I gave was intended to be specific to the question the OP asked, namely how to cope with a maniac in a 1-5 spread limit game. It wasn't meant to be a general treatise on how to beat every 1-5 Foxwoods game, and certainly not 5-10 or higher structured-limit games.

There are some specific points I'd like to address that one or both of you guys brought up.

(1) The idea that the ante justifies loosening up compared to a non-anted game is completely wrong when the game is already loose. In a loose game, even at 1-5, the extra $4 is a fly on an elephant's butt, especially as it all goes towards the rake anyway and shouldn't even be considered when figuring your pot odds. (I'm assuming these games are raked and not time-charged).

(2) As for raising with a drawing hand (CJC), this is almost always wrong unless either (a) you have a completely live ace, or (b) a raise will get you heads up against the idiot AND you have two overcards to the idiot's door card, or (c) a raise has a very good chance of buying a free card on fourth street. Otherwise raising on third with a drawing hand is usually a big -EV play. Raising on 4th, however, is often a different matter, because if you have made a four-flush and it's still live, you're almost always getting +EV to raise against any number of opponents, plus it may buy you a free card on fifth street.

(3) As for calling with weak drawing hands on third, this is often right, but not as often as most stud players think. These hands just don't get there that often, and when they do, they often don't hold up.

It's a peculiarity of stud-type games that as the number of players in the pot increases, your pot equity with most hands goes down even faster. That is, a hand that might have 25% pot equity in a 3-way pot might have only 10% equity in a 5-way pot. The problem tends to get worse on the later streets, especially for unimproved pairs AND, believe it or not, for baby straight and flush draws that haven't got there yet. The fact that a bunch of people are hanging around on the late streets when you have a little straight or flush draw usually means you are up against better draws, and in the long run, this means you're actually an overall dog.

(4) Playing with your balls [sic] is a good way to wind up in 1-3. It's okay to think at the table, really it is.

You guys may well be beating these games, but I'm pretty sure it's not because you're playing extra drawing hands in a RAISED pot (note emphasis). It's because you outread your opponents and therefore fold faster than your opponents when you're getting the worst of it.

Lin

[Andy B]

Maniac on a stud table. Yum. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] I don't particularly like playing hold'em with maniacs, but I do like playing stud with them.

If you have a reasonable hand and you can get it heads-up by re-raising him, do so. Be very careful though. If there are a couple of callers in between you already, you're liable to wind up with a big four-way pot with everyone staying in until the river. This probably isn't what you want if you have a pair of Jacks or something. In that case, just call and hope you hit something. Another thing that can happen is that people will tire of folding and will decide to play their pair of Sevens for $10 anyway. If there are enough folks doing this, you are again better off just calling and trying to make a hand or perhaps thinning the field out later.

I tend to side with Lin (who I happen to think has as much "balls" as any of you $5/10 weenies [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]). I think that a lot of people on this forum over-emphasize the need to loosen up when the ante is high. If the game is loose, the plain and simple fact of the matter is that you are going to have to show down the best hand most of the time. If the other players aren't going to let you (or the maniac) run them over, you probably shouldn't loosen up all that much.

This is where Lin and I differ--I don't consider playing small but live three-flushes to be "loosening up." I have had a lot of success in loose low-limit stud games, and I believe that a significant portion of my profit comes from flush draws. Lin writes:

"The fact that a bunch of people are hanging around on the late streets when you have a little straight or flush draw usually means you are up against better draws, and in the long run, this means you're actually an overall dog."

I think that what you're saying is quite valid if you are in a multi-way pot against decent players. If you're in a game that usually has two- and three-way pots, and you suddenly have a six-way pot, your small flush draw probably doesn't have a whole lot of equity. Unfortunately, by the time you figure out that you're in trouble, the pot's probably too big to fold. I think, however, that stonekiller2 is talking about generally weak opponents, and I think that small flush draws are still profitable against these guys. It is true that the maniac's raising on third street combined with the fact that the limits don't double on later streets cut down on your implied odds, but I think that the multi-way nature of these pots should still make small flush draws profitable. Straight draws are another matter. I won't say that you should never play a straight draw. I will say that the vast majority of stud players would be better off if they never played for a straight.

I wouldn't classify anything Lin wrote as asinine, though.

I think that CJC asks a good question, but I rarely check-raise in low-limit stud games. It tends to antagonize people and get them out of the gambling mood. This can be a very bad thing, and the extra bet you may gain may not be worth the price. If you do something tricky like check-raising, it may encourage your opponents to try something tricky. If they have been barely paying attention up to this point, that isn't a good thing.

Good question, good thread. Thanks for bringing it up.

Cheers,

Andy B

Currently a $6/12 weenie [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

[CJC]

Hello Again Lin,

To reply to your replies [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

1) The idea that the ante justifies loosening up compared to a non-anted game is completely wrong when the game is already loose.

In a very loose game I DO AGREE with you on this one. Actually I have thought about your comments on this matter quite a deal in the last hour. ( I have nothing else to do here at work right now [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] ) I do think we might 'differ' on our definitions of loosening up.

I will just say, that ON AVERAGE.. if one plays a 1-5 game with the 50 cent ante the same way he/she plays the 1-5 with no ante, that person WILL NOT BE A WINNER. Or at the very least, will not be maximizing his/her profits.

2) As for raising with a drawing hand (CJC), this is almost always wrong unless

I don't rember posting above anything about raising with a drawing hand. I do remember discussing RE-RAISING. Though there are several times when both are correct. ( particularly re-raising ) For example. If you know a loose opponent will raise with something like 456 and you hold 10JQ, if a re-raise will get you heads-up. Wouldn't you want to be? I would! Now in a really-loose game where heads-up opportunities are almost impossible, then I agree re-rasing with a holding such as this is futile/stupid. Although the original post implies a loose game with 1 maniac, it didn't refer to a MULTI-MANIAC table. ( such as the one really loose one I described in my 10-20 post from the other day )

3) As for calling with weak drawing hands on third, this is often right, but not as often as most stud players think

I don't disagree with you here at all..


4) Playing with your balls [sic] is a good way to wind up in 1-3. It's okay to think at the table, really it is


[img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]


Sincerly,

CJ

[stonekiller2]

Thanks to all for the advice and Happy Holidays to you all.

Andy, I agree with much of what you said. Often in my 1-5 game, there will be 3-4 players on sixth street. Someone makes trip 3's or a gut shot straight and beats AAKK. With so many people in the hand the winners get bigger. Straights are very frequent.

It is impossible to raise out some of these players no matter how badly thier pair of 7's is beat.

I have begun to play MANY more hands for a limp and more one gap straights and flush draws. This works (passive game) because most of the players don't bet until they make a monster and will pay off when you hit your hand.

I agree that playing those small 3 flushes make perfect sense in this sort of game.

I like your point about the check-raise as well. I think if I softened my table image a bit, people may play a little friendlier (and longer) against me. I would (and have) check-raised my mother (an avid player). I agree, at the lower limits, some people are offended by this.

I wish you all rolled up K's for Christmas. A's would be pushing it.

[Brudder Andrusha]

I wish you all rolled up K's for Christmas. A's would be pushing it.

Funny you that you mention this...

I drove down to ACity on Xmas eve wanting to miss the Nor'easter that was coming on Xmas Day. So after all the goodies of Xmas Day morning, I weaselled my way down to Taj for what I expected to be a quiet session of $5/$10...

I was placed in seat #4 and soon after my neighbor in seat #5 go his rolled Ks
just like you said for Xmas... Unfortunately for him, he lost to a maniac made his gun shot draw on 7th street and beat him with a straight...

Not to worry. After about 1/2 an hour the elderly gent left with a stack and a Star of David! I guess the rolled up Ks work on Xmas if you're a believer! [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

LOL