How to compete with a maniac?

[stonekiller2]

Last week at Foxwoods, I was on a very good 1-5 table. There were four weak players who chased far too often. A Maniac sat down and began raising everything. At one point
he completed the 3rd street bet on 15 straight hands. There were two players between us, so often when I tried to force players out, we ended up with a huge 4 way pot with everyone going all the way to the river. The pots became so big that nearly everyone began chasing to the river.

My strategy was to continue to play tight and try to get heads-up against him whenever possible. My winnings on the table slowed soon after he arrived. Even knowing my starting cards were better, I was outdrawn often by someone in the pot. I increased my play of drawing hands, but didn't make many of my straights and flushes.

Any suggestions on playing this sort of opponnent?

[DoctorK]

It sounds like you're talking abot 2 separate things.

First, when I'm up against one player who raises at every opportunity, I've found that he usually will drive other players out, so when I have a hand, rather than trying to raise or re-raise, I'll just call along. By re-raising, I have found that a lot of other players will tag along on the large pot. Trying to get heads up with him is a good move, because you know that the hands you're playing are better than the ones he's playing.

Now, the second issue is what to do when the majority of the table is loose. I have a hard time with this situation, myself. In 1-5 stud with no ante, there's really no penalty to continuing to play good cards (there's no ante eating your stack). At Foxwoods, however, there's a $0.50 ante, which, compared with the $1 bring in, results in an over-ante situation, and the correct play IS to loosen up a bit. So, perhaps these other players are actually playing more correctly than you. You want to play more hands that will play well against multiple players -- flush and straight draws. Big pairs are still very good hands, but they lose some value vs. 4 or 5 callers who are working on draws. Consider treating 2 pair as a draw to a Full House.

Don't forget that table selection should be part of a winning player's arsenal. If you're feeling uncomfortable playing at a table with that kind of make up, request a table change. Don't get too caught up in the "I must learn how to conquer this type of game" mentality. The object is to make money, and if there's an easier table across the room, you'd be a fool not to move there.

Doc.

[stonekiller2]

DoctorK,

I think you are correct. I should be more willing to pick up and move. The loseness of the game has become an issue since the wild player joined the table. I have had success in loose games, but not when a wild player drives up the stakes and keeps even more players in.

My hope was to figure out how to 1.help the wild player lose his money faster and 2. profit from his loose and aggressive play.

I think my hessitation to go heads up often with this type of player is the swings that occur if they begin to hit their hands and they will hit some.

I was hoping folks may have a strategy they suggest other than playing good hands heads up and allowing them to build a pot for monster hands.

Stone.

[Lin Sherman]

Tightening up was right, playing more drawing hands was probably wrong. In spread limit, the bet size doesn't double on the late streets, so if a maniac is making you pay $6 on third to play a drawing hand, you're not getting the implied odds to make it profitable to call on third to see if you pick up the fourth card for your draw. You should probably stick to three flushes to a live ace or three suited cards within a straight span; almost any other drawing-type hand should go in the dustbin.

Don't feel you have to loosen up to pay for your antes. Sooner or later, in a game like this, you will win a huge pot that will more than make up for the antes. Remember that losing a .50 ante is a lot less expensive than losing $21 to chase with a drawing hand and bust out.

Lin

[CJC]

Lin,

I'm confused as to some of your advise to the poster!

Tightening up was right, playing more drawing hands was probably wrong

I do not like this statement. The poster implies that the games are large-mulitway pots, as is very typical of Foxwoods 1-5 games. ( trust me-I know and I Kill that game ) Large muliway pots are what you want for drawing hands! Even if you have to pay a full price on 3rd! Your implied odds are tremendous in these games, especially against a maniac. I'm certainly not saying play every drawing hand, but live 3 flushes( especially Big ones ) and big straight draws are certainly playable. Most are re-raisable against a maniac!! The KEY is to know 1) When to let go of your draw..even if you have improved 2)Knowing when your drawing hand is the BEST hand........Both of which I'll admit novice players seldom know. I guess what I'm trying to say is against a maniac I want to partake in as MANY PROFITABLE situations as I can againat him/her.


You should probably stick to three flushes to a live ace or three suited cards within a straight span; almost any other drawing-type hand should go in the dustbin.


Another statement I don't like. ALTHOUGH.. and this is important. if it wasn't a large multiway pot type situation, I would agree with this. Once again I will say, play as many hands as you can profitably against this type opponent(s)


Don't feel you have to loosen up to pay for your antes


This advice is assenine!! NO ONE should listen to this. Have you even ever played in this game?


Remember that losing a .50 ante is a lot less expensive than losing $21 to chase with a drawing hand and bust out.


Sometimes you just have to grit your teeth and do battle! If you don't have any balls, go play 1-3!

CJ

[CJC]

Don't forget that table selection should be part of a winning player's arsenal. If you're feeling uncomfortable playing at a table with that kind of make up, request a table change. Don't get too caught up in the "I must learn how to conquer this type of game" mentality. The object is to make money, and if there's an easier table across the room, you'd be a fool not to move there.

This is some of the best advise I have seen here!!

CJ

[CJC]

I have reponded to some other posters in this thread.

I will ask/say one thing..

There were 4 opponents between you and your maniac opponent.

Did you utilize the check-raise enough?

Just something to ponder..
CJ

[patrick dicaprio]

i dont think this is good advice for these low limit games at foxwoods. i dont even follow the advice you haev given at 5-10.

i play virtually any drawing hand that has a chance in multiway pots, and will even limp in with low gut shots if it is only the bring in and it is loose passive.why would you tighten up in a game where even when the pot is raised you will get five callers, and where you (presumably) will be able to outplay your opponents. people play absolute garbage in these games even when it is raised and you will often see players call to the river with something like a pair of 8's. believe it or not this is true. i will usually play almost any decent hand in unraised pots.

you have to keep in mind that a maniac in this game is a great thing if you play reasonably well because you will still almost always play better hands than not only him but better than everyone else even when it is raised.granted that you have to play well on third street and must be good at evaluating the strength of your hand. but if you do then you will crush the game. warning: This advice does NOT apply always but just to the games at foxwoods, where it applies routinely and if you try it in a tight game or one where the raisers play reasonable cards you may be in for a long session.

i dont think you can beat these games if you restrict threeflushes to live aces or straighflushes. i will play every live threeflush even when raised in these games and will play most threestraights if live. with unraised pots i play even looser.

as fas as not loosening up in these games because of the antes, i think you have a valid point especially if you dont play well or are not that much better than your opponents. but if you play reasonably well you will leave a lot of money on the table if you dont loosen up.

Pat

[AlanBostick]

I've read through this thread, and while there are valuable suggestions scattered throughout, I think the responses are overlooking an important issue.

One of the chief features of seven-card stud, in my opinion, is the opportunity it presents for reading opponents' hands. The five betting rounds present a kind of narrative of the development of players' hands. Skilled players understand these narratives and use them to guide the play of their own hands.

Now here we have a table full of loose players and one loose cannon. The loose cannon is playing -- and raising on third street -- every hand, and if our hero reraises as an attempt to isolate, the other players stick around for the ride.

The problem here is that the loose cannon can be playing anything and that the loose chasers, too, can be playing almost anything. The opening of the narrative is no longer something like "In the beginning, there was a split pair of tens," but instead "Once upon a time, there was a guy who had two random hole cards with the ten of diamonds up."

It's a lot harder to read, and to play against, a hand based on random starters than it is against a player whose play makes sense. And competent stud players' play has a solid basis on making those reads.

In a game like the one stonekiller2 describes, an important part of your usual edge has gone away.

This can be an argument for game selection: stick to games where your edge is best. But you can also have a significant edge over the other players in this game by means of other basic stud skills: starting-hand selection; awareness of the liveness of the cards one needs, and so on. Often it's going to come down to playing your own hand and regarding the other hands strictly as information about dead cards and betting order.

Another thing to remember is that when most pots are multiway, every hand is a drawing hand. That pair of aces with a suited king kicker may well be the very best hand on third street, but unless it catches a second pair or improves in some other way, the guy in seat two wearing the green fright wig, white greasepaint and bulbous red rubber nose is going to beat you with his fives and threes.

The point here is that you need to play better, more live draws than your opponents. And remember that, in a 1-5 game with no double bet on later streets, implied odds are cut, just as Lin Sherman points out, and your investment in the pot is front-loaded when the loose cannon raises and reraises. Your draw to aces up or trip aces with an (As Ah) Kh starter is a lot better than Clueless the Clown's (or even Patrick DiCaprio's) rainbow (4 5) 3

Games like this are extremely beatable, but they involve bigger swings than tighter or more passive games. You need to be prepared to take that heat, and you need to be prepared to trade off the fact that good starters will win far less often against the much larger pots you drag when they do win.

[stonekiller2]

CJ,

Thanks for the advice. It sounds like I am not too far off.

You are right about check raising, I need to do this more. The situation was not well suited for check raising because there were only 2 (not 4) players after me and before the maniac. One was tight and folded often anyway.

I guess the best thing to do is play solid hands including live draws and buckle up for the shootout.

Thanks for the advice.
I'll let you know how I do this weekend.