Questioning YAO's hand charts.

[gila]

I really like King Yao's hand charts. One item, though, that I am having trouble understanding is his advice to "Fold" KTs in early position but "Fold; Limp" with QTs from the same position. These are both debatable either way (fold, limp), and very game dependent, but, if there is a difference is strength, I would think the KTs would be stronger. I realize that the straight benefit is slightly better with the qt, but I would think the K kicker (for the ten), the higher chance of floping top pair, and the added benefit of being able to BEAT a queen high flush (and vice versa, being able to lose to a king high flush if you have the qt in those rare flush vs. flush hands), would be more than enough to make up for the 1 extra staight draw.

As far as running into kicker problems with the K, I really don't see much of a difference vs the Q. Either way your dominated by 1. ak, aq. 2. kq and 3. kj qj.

I realize both these hands are marginal, and very close in power, but I would have to think the KTs is the better hand in this position.

Thoughts?

[Niediam]

SSH has some similiar advice - it says in a tight game if the pot has been raised and several people are in you can call with QJs but you should fold KTs and KJs.

I know that doesn't really address your thoughts but I felt it was worth pointing out that the concept is not totally Yao's.

[oreogod]

I would assume because QTs is a better hand multi way then KTs. I also find that with QT, you less likely to be dominated kicker wise that you are with KT (being up against AK and such) -- that last part may be bogus. But I believe QT is a better multi way hand.

His first option is still to fold in EP though.

[Leavenfish]

[ QUOTE ]
SSH has some similiar advice - it says in a tight game if the pot has been raised and several people are in you can call with QJs but you should fold KTs and KJs.

I know that doesn't really address your thoughts but I felt it was worth pointing out that the concept is not totally Yao's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check that again. The SSH TIGHT chart has you FOLDING each to a raise and the SSH LOOSE chart has you PLAYING each against a raise in EP.

---Leavenfish

[Niediam]

Nope, what I said was correct.

[Leavenfish]

[ QUOTE ]
Nope, what I said was correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

You said, "SSH has some similiar advice - it says in a tight game if the pot has been raised and several people are in you can call with QJs but you should fold KTs and KJs."

SSH says, pg 80:

AGAINST A RAISE:
Play: AA-TT, AKs-AJs, KQs, and AK
Re-raise: AA-TT, AKs and AK

Where does it say 'call with QJs? That's all I am saying you are wrong about.

I seem to be on a 'chart' kick today...but it can't hurt revisiting them from time to time.

---Leavenfish

[Niediam]

It's on the chart in the book. P. 81

[Leavenfish]

[ QUOTE ]
It's on the chart in the book. P. 81

[/ QUOTE ]

But Early (and middle) position are on page 80. Page 81 is for Late, Small and Big Blinds. That's the second edition, first printing, Jan 2005.

The original poster was refering to the Early position recommendation in Yao's book:

[ QUOTE ]
I am having trouble understanding is his advice to "Fold" KTs in early position but "Fold; Limp" with QTs from the same position.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you said:

[ QUOTE ]
SSH has some similiar advice - it says in a tight game if the pot has been raised and several people are in you can call with QJs but you should fold KTs and KJs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Early position, tight games are on page 80. I was just pointing out for the poster that QJs is not recommended against a raise by Ed in Early position in his Tight chart.
It is, however, in early position in the "Loose" games chart on page 82.

---Leavenfish

[Niediam]

I know. I was just trying to point out that the concept that connectedness may be more valuable than high card strength isn't new with Yao.

[King Yao]

I do think QTs is slightly better than KTs, although both should be folded UTG in most 20/40 games or higher. In the lower limits, say 3/6 and 5/10, maybe there are games where they are both slighlty positive EV hands to limp with. If you want to limp in with KTs as well as QTs in those loosey goosey games, I wouldn't argue. But I think there is a small cross section of games where QTs becomes more valuable than KTs - not that big of a cross-section, but I think it exists, once in a while in 20/40 games. Note that I lump QTs with T9s: QTs has the higher cards, but with a gap, I think those two hands are close as far as how they should be played.

I just picked up SSH a couple of days ago, and although I haven't read it yet, I glanced at the pages that were mentioned in this page. I will be honest and say that I have never played in what they define as a Loose Game on page 82 = 6-8 players on Average to the Flop. In those games I wouldn't disagree that playing both KTs and QTs are both fine, but again, I have no experience in those games at all.