QTo in BB(1/2 6 Max)

[MATT111]

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I don't understand why you're calling a raise with QTo. Even in the BB against the maniac PFR, you still are also against the two limpers. Heads-up, I would call this easily against the maniac.

I'll just imagine your hand really was QTs. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]


[/ QUOTE ]

I even want to call here with QTo. Domination is a much less relevant issue 6-max than it is full ring.
Early position limpers 6-max very likely hold complete trash (Axo at best).
The preflop call is good.

[lautzutao]

I didn't even consider whether or not to call, I just did it thinking this is common with almost every player coming along. Why is it wrong to think about the odds when calling from the blinds?

I appreciate everybody's concern for my preflop play but I'm personally more concerned with the postflop aspects, and I thank everyone for addressing this. When it comes down to it, isn't SH poker about playing marginal situations well?

*shrugs* I'd rather play this hand multiway than some of the hands I've seen Peter_Rus advocate playing in his archive posts from the blinds. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

oh yeah, why do you consider 98o a better hand in this spot, because it's less likely to be dominated?

[Aaron W.]

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I didn't even consider whether or not to call, I just did it thinking this is common with almost every player coming along. Why is it wrong to think about the odds when calling from the blinds?

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Because preflop play simply isn't about immediate odds. You're not playing all-in preflop poker, and you need to consider the future action of the hand. Preflop play is about the implied odds of how much money you can make off of your opponents when you flop a good hand (and how much money you can avoid losing when you're beat).

[ QUOTE ]
I appreciate everybody's concern for my preflop play but I'm personally more concerned with the postflop aspects, and I thank everyone for addressing this. When it comes down to it, isn't SH poker about playing marginal situations well?

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of playing marginal situations well is to stay out of trouble. Preflop play is where it all starts because you have "compounding errors" which make you lose more than you often should. It's similar to making a loose call on 3rd street in 7-stud. Sometimes you pick up just enough to keep chasing, and you find yourself deeply invested in a pot that you probably won't win, but where the pot is getting too big to fold.

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*shrugs* I'd rather play this hand multiway than some of the hands I've seen Peter_Rus advocate playing in his archive posts from the blinds. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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QTo is not a multi-way hand. You should know this! You want to play multiway hands in a multiway pot.

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oh yeah, why do you consider 98o a better hand in this spot, because it's less likely to be dominated?

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Yes, 98o is much less likely to be dominated, so that if you get some action, you usually have a better sense of what your outs are and where you stand.

[lautzutao]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I appreciate everybody's concern for my preflop play but I'm personally more concerned with the postflop aspects, and I thank everyone for addressing this. When it comes down to it, isn't SH poker about playing marginal situations well?

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of playing marginal situations well is to stay out of trouble. Preflop play is where it all starts because you have "compounding errors" which make you lose more than you often should. It's similar to making a loose call on 3rd street in 7-stud. Sometimes you pick up just enough to keep chasing, and you find yourself deeply invested in a pot that you probably won't win, but where the pot is getting too big to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Taking the 7stud example further, you DO chase with marginal hands when the antes are so high that you have the odds to peel of a card yes? Sometimes it's just wrong not to.

I don't want to argue with you because you're probably right in what you say given the way I worded that response above. I don't want to sound like I play every raise to me out of the blinds like I'm calculating odds. But against this guy who's raised everytime he entered the pot, and this many callers it seemed like a good play. It still does.

And Ed Miller's post says he WANTS to play crap hands like K4s, just not against "normal" raisers or strong limpers. I don't think I had either at this table.

Then again, maybe I'm not good enough to play marginal hands like these to begin with...that's a completely different discussion I guess[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Sykes]

Whoever doesn't call this PFR is playing BAD poker. Simple as that.

Otherwise, nice hand. At first I thought to CR but then why are we CR? There is no draws and your hand is pretty good and we want to see a showdown.

[homebrewer]

[ QUOTE ]

1/2 6-Max:

Dealt to Hero Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 10[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG Folds, MP1 Calls, CO Calls, <font color="red">villian Raises</font>, SB Calls, Hero Calls,
MP1 Calls, CO Calls.

FLOP Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (11sb)

SB Checks, Hero Bets, MP1 Folds, CO Folds, <font color="red">villian Raises</font>, SB calls, hero Calls.

<font color="green"> Meh [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] Should have checkraised this flop, given villians raise correct?</font>


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If you anticipate that your aggro villian will raise, isn't betting out the best strategy here? You give SB a chance to fold here. Now, I'm a bit worried that he's calling 2 cold.

[Aaron W.]

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I appreciate everybody's concern for my preflop play but I'm personally more concerned with the postflop aspects, and I thank everyone for addressing this. When it comes down to it, isn't SH poker about playing marginal situations well?

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of playing marginal situations well is to stay out of trouble. Preflop play is where it all starts because you have "compounding errors" which make you lose more than you often should. It's similar to making a loose call on 3rd street in 7-stud. Sometimes you pick up just enough to keep chasing, and you find yourself deeply invested in a pot that you probably won't win, but where the pot is getting too big to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Taking the 7stud example further, you DO chase with marginal hands when the antes are so high that you have the odds to peel of a card yes? Sometimes it's just wrong not to.

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Yes and no. You want to chase marginal hands that have a reasonable chance of actually catching up *AND* staying ahead. If you have a pair in the hole and an up card both of which are smaller than the other player's up card (and you suspect he has a pair), even with large antes you shouldn't be trying to chase him down. On the other hand, if you have a marginal hand which has the potential of turning into a monster hand, then you would consider peeling one to see what happens.

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But against this guy who's raised everytime he entered the pot, and this many callers it seemed like a good play. It still does.

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There's a difference between raising the pot every time you enter and raising every pot.

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And Ed Miller's post says he WANTS to play crap hands like K4s, just not against "normal" raisers or strong limpers. I don't think I had either at this table.

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He also wants to play those in position, which allows him more of an advantage than the strength of the two cards in front of him.

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Then again, maybe I'm not good enough to play marginal hands like these to begin with...that's a completely different discussion I guess[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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There's nothing wrong with experimenting. You learn a lot about your own game when you try to push the boundaries out a little bit. I don't absolutely hate the limp. I just don't believe that it's profitable in this situation. I would prefer more of a read, or fewer villains, for him to raise this from the small blind so that I have position... or something more to grab onto to say that I can turn this into a good spot for myself.

[deception5]

I have to disagree here.

If we make top pair it is going to hold up reasonably often here, particularly against loose players (although we don't know for sure whether these players are loose or tight). Unless we have special reads, the first 2 players are likely to have weak hands (given default reads) because the first open limped and the second did not isolate. The raiser has raised every hand he's entered so far so there's no reason to assume we're dominated. On average, someone raising 12/30 times preflop is not always raising premium hands.

Our hand is easy to get away from if we miss the flop. We also have relative position on the raiser and can usually knock out the field should we desire. We also have an advantage because we can see what everyone else is going to do before the preflop raiser as well. 1/3 of the time we'll flop a pair and because we have 2 big cards this will very often be top pair. And as a bonus, the pot is offering a significant overlay.

[Aaron W.]

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Our hand is easy to get away from if we miss the flop. We also have relative position on the raiser and can usually knock out the field should we desire. We also have an advantage because we can see what everyone else is going to do before the preflop raiser as well. 1/3 of the time we'll flop a pair and because we have 2 big cards this will very often be top pair. And as a bonus, the pot is offering a significant overlay.

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I don't think it's so easy to get away. Assuming that the flop is checked to villain and he bets, you're looking at a 10-11 SB pot. Giving yourself between 3 and 4 outs if you've got some weak backdoor draw and an overcard (or two overcards), you've got just enough to peel, and then you've got to decide if you want to peel or call and risk facing a check-raise.

[deception5]

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I don't think it's so easy to get away. Assuming that the flop is checked to villain and he bets, you're looking at a 10-11 SB pot. Giving yourself between 3 and 4 outs if you've got some weak backdoor draw and an overcard (or two overcards), you've got just enough to peel, and then you've got to decide if you want to peel or call and risk facing a check-raise.

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But I don't think we should base our preflop decision here on whether this might get us into tough situation post flop. You could check and fold everytime you were in that situation postflop and the preflop call would still show a profit.

In fact, you could fold anything but a pair and you'd still hit 33% of the flops. If you consider oesd's as well, you could only play the strong hands postflop and show a profit, you would just potentially be missing some additional profit by not making those loose calls (when no one check/raises).