Maybe I need some help - Page 7

SomethingClever · #61 10-12-2005, 04:36 PM

Dude, my path was very similar to yours, although I didn't hit my major downstreak until I reached 2/4.

I pwned .5/1 for about 5 bb/100 for like 40,000 hands,

Then I pwned 1/2 for a while and quickly moved up to 2/4.

When I got there I was a weak tight nut peddling nit with a VPIP of about 12.

20,000 hands of breakeven poker followed, and I made the move to 1/2 6-max.

6-max has taught me more about poker to date than anything else.

MrWookie47 · #62 10-12-2005, 04:37 PM

Should I make a sticky with a link to the session and a link to this post? This has virtually turned into a microposter session.

bozlax · #63 10-12-2005, 04:45 PM

I think it's just about run its course. Nobody's adding anything new, Miles is just bored and beating the poor kid up a little more. Not that there's anything wrong with that, just so long as he doesn't dress him up like his roommates.

detruncate · #64 10-12-2005, 04:53 PM

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I pretty much use the SSH starting chart for tight games as my basis for every session and right around 14% is where I always end up.

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Stop using the chart as a crutch to keep you from learning about true preflop play. The chart is only there to prop you up just long enough to figure out how to stand on your own.

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To expand on this... I was never quite as tight as you pf, but I spent quite a bit of time in the 15s and 16s. With a few exceptions, you're probably doing close to what most other people are doing with your core hands, so I can understand your feeling that there's not that much room for major pf changes. However, there are three areas that most likely account for the extremely low VPIP:

1) MP/LP aggression. Situational raising to take advantage of the blinds or to isolate weak limpers or loose raisers with position. You often don't need as strong a hand as you'd think. Your blind steal numbers are very low. When you can't expect as many multiway pots (and with them lots of people who will pay you off all the way with very weak hands), you have to be more aggressive about trying to create favourable conditions for extracting money.

2) SB play. You're very tight. You need to be able to adjust your SB requirements based on the specific hand conditions. Look at things like microposter sessions to see what other people are playing that you're not.

3) Playing vs a raise. I don't have much info except the AQo hand, but you should be thinking about what you're calling/reraising and whether you're doing a good job of adjusting to the hand texture -- who raised, what's your relative position like, who's left to act, etc.

The biggest problem I see is that you don't seem to be doing a very good job of adjusting full stop. You've developed a very weak/tight style -- that isn't to say that you're not aggressive post flop (and in fact you might be overaggressive in spots)... it means that you're expecting to be able to push very hard with your best hands and eject at the slightest provocation the rest of the time.

I was very worried to hear you say that you hate to just call post flop... it's a sign that you're either not recognizing profitable calling situations, or more likely that you're rarely willing to put yourself in situations where betting or raising for value isn't the best choice -- quintessential weak/tight nut peddling. This style works very well in certain games, but you're never going to be more than a marginal winner (at best) outside those games unless you're willing to open things up.

You've developed a formula that has worked in the past and you've equated that with good play. It is good in the sense that you've done very well for yourself (which is no small achievement), but it's not a sign of good poker, which is all about adaptation. You need to develop a better theoretical understanding so you can figure out why the things you've been doing work sometimes but not others.

Aaron's suggestion re. preflop play is a great place to start. You know more or less what to do with the core hands, and that's a good step. It's probably the easiest thing a person can do early on to ensure themselves of close to break even play. Now throw away the chart and think about why you're playing the way you're playing. Why do you raise? Why limp? How do the specific conditions in a particular hand affect your decision? That sort of thing.

You probably also have a good handle on some aspects of post flop play, but given the style you've been playing I doubt very much that you're close to solid -- and that's cool... it's why we're here, no? But you need to be willing to completely reexamine what you're doing, focusing specifically on the 'why' of things. You're folding way too much, especially given your very limited range of starting hands. Variance no doubt has played a role, but from a fellow weak/tightie I urge you to start working on this now.

6-max will likely be a very frustrating experience for a while, but I encourage you to play some. It will put you in a game condition that is one of the worst imaginable for weak/tight play. You'll either adapt your game or decide to go back to the games you're more comfortable with -- which is fine if that's what you want. You're playing for your own reasons and don't have to justify them to anyone but yourself.

One last thing... don't try to do everything all at once. Start with getting better insight into your game and then try to apply the lessons you learn to new situations. Your game will open up over time as your understanding improves. Even (or especially) in 6-max, start conservatively until you get more comfortable. Don't feel you need to follow the pf chart religiously right off the bat. Start with the basics and work your way through the more marginal hands as your post flop play improves. Prepare yourself for a rough go. It's not about being a winner our of the gate, it's about developing into a winner. You might even get a nice little upwsing to help you find your way.

We all have to completely break down our game from time to time. It's usually a sign that we're making progress. Best of luck and happy pokering.

homebrewer · #65 10-12-2005, 04:53 PM

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And honestly I havent even looked at the charts in months. I think I will go review them.

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I'm not sure that going back to SSH charts will help. You seem to have taken charts intended for full-ring games a bit further than intended.

I believe that one of the main points of the advice given so far is that you are probably not taking advantage of situations where the pre-flop charts don't provide guidance. For example, isolating a loose raiser, LAG, or maniac. Knowing when to limp or raise with hands that SSH might suggest that you muck in a full-ring game. Peeling cards when you have odds to do so.

kiemo · #66 10-12-2005, 04:55 PM

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need i say raise preflop? and bet the river.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 raises, 5 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

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MP1 was a huge maniac (I think his raising K7o preflop on this hand proves that) but he was a huge maniac who was winning alot. Tilting the night away I honestly believed he was going to show the higher flush.

Also I almost never raise TT from EP. I used to raise with it always but discovered over 30k hands it was a losing play. Small sample size probably but it was enough to convince me to play it as a meduim pair early on.

kiemo · #67 10-12-2005, 05:04 PM

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i'm on my lunch break, and i decided to get through the whole 300 hands. why aren't you limping this?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, BB folds, MP1 calls, CO folds, Button folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, MP1 calls.

River: (5.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, MP1 raises, SB calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

..........and why did you check the flop here?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 7 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, CO calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, CO calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

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Hand 1. I almost never play medium or small pocket pairs for EP at 1/2. I identified this in one of earlier posts as a potential spot to get more hands in. To me though there just isnt much value in playing for sets as I dont make enough money back when I hit to justify calling and possibly having to invest another SB on the way back.

Hand 2. I tend to check/fold completely missed flops. The ace and two suited on the board typically means I am way behind an ace who isnt folding and a spade draw isnt going away either. I dont see what a raise here accomplishes.

kiemo · #68 10-12-2005, 05:12 PM

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Should I make a sticky with a link to the session and a link to this post? This has virtually turned into a microposter session.

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I dont think that is necessary.

This session is not a real good indicator of my play I dont think as I believe now I that tilt had a very strong presence in alot of my action. I think a better representation of hands would be a night where I didnt have 3 outta my worst 5 sessions of all time in the same night [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

People have pointed out some good items for me to follow up on based upon what they saw and I will go with that for now.

If I think its necessary I may grab 300-500 more hands and link to them to get some input.

Thanks though

SomethingClever · #69 10-12-2005, 05:15 PM

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Also I almost never raise TT from EP. I used to raise with it always but discovered over 30k hands it was a losing play. Small sample size probably but it was enough to convince me to play it as a meduim pair early on.

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Stop it... you're hurting my brain. You have major leaks. Please listen to what people are telling you.

SomethingClever · #70 10-12-2005, 05:18 PM

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Hand 2. I tend to check/fold completely missed flops. The ace and two suited on the board typically means I am way behind an ace who isnt folding and a spade draw isnt going away either. I dont see what a raise here accomplishes.

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omfg. you must bet the flop. if one of them folds, bet the turn, fold to a c/r. or if he calls the turn, take a free showdown.

if they both call, you can usually check the turn and fold the river.

BUT YOU MUST BET THE FLOP! Why do you think one of them has an ace? They think YOU have the ace, man!