General HE forum required reading

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first off, the info in the FAQ isn't Ed Miller's
secondly it was made 8months ago or so

I think most solid winning players that play 10/20full or higher raise in the 10-14% range or so

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So a VPIP slightly above 15 and PFR slightly above 8 is a reasonable combination. The next question is why my VPIP is so low. I would answer that I don't play small pocket pairs and low Axs nearly as often as many players here do (certainly not early) because if there are profits on those hands, it is hardly worth the distraction when you are playing 3-4 tables at once. Also, they become even less profitable (or losers) as you move up and the games get tighter.

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my guess is you don't steal enough, and don't defend enough

[Greg J]

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So a VPIP slightly above 15 and PFR slightly above 8 is a reasonable combination. The next question is why my VPIP is so low. I would answer that I don't play small pocket pairs and low Axs nearly as often as many players here do (certainly not early) because if there are profits on those hands, it is hardly worth the distraction when you are playing 3-4 tables at once. Also, they become even less profitable (or losers) as you move up and the games get tighter.

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I want to point out that the ratio is mostly a statistical coincidence, but since they have the same underlying cause (a appropriate amount of looseness) they should tend to go together. When they don't it suggests you have a problem with not being aggressive enough, and are open limping too much (likely in LP). As for a vpip that is "too low", don't sweat it TOO much. I was 15/8 for a while, and I was a winning player several months ago. Since then I've "evolved" into 19/11 since. As you learn more and get more experienced it comes up kind of naturally. One thing is to stop using autofold if there is ANY chance you will play the hand. (Like stealing with GrannyMae or a hand like A6o in LP.)

[Blunderfull1]

Good point greg, I dont autofold my marginal hands in middle to late postions. I often find myself having little conversations with myself when I play online. Such as, I want to see 3 limpers to me before I play my 86s in LP. Or if I have 33 in LP I want to see 4 limpers before I call.

[Aaron W.]

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The point is that PFR is not a stat you should look at in isolation, but rather in conjunction with vpip. If I see a player with a good sample of hand that have a vpip of say 23, but a pf raise of 5 or lower i usually make a note of it. This is out of proportion. I interpreted Ed's advice to mean "keep the 18, raise up that 7." He said at least double digits, though I don't think 18/9 is horrible, though 18/11 is closer to ideal.

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This is spot on.

If you start off with the most ABC of all charts, you end up up with a tight passive 16/8 game. There's nothing wrong with that when you're getting started.

There used to be a fair number of posts asking how people can raise their PFRs above 8. I consistently gave the answer that they should look for raising situations more than raising hands. Raising to isolate loose limpers accounts for quite a bit of the extra PFRs. Pot building raises account for a smaller chunk.

If you're playing 16/8, you're already entering the pot with hands that get more than your fair share. This is the reason you've been winning, combined with the fact that you now don't suck postflop. Now if you want to move up, it's time to start making money with those hands preflop as well. If you never played an *EXTRA* hand, but just increased your PFRs (16/10), your BB/100 will improve.

What happens when you raise? You probably get 3-5 extra small bets into the pot. Assuming you're raising good hands, your share of this bonus is probably 1.5-2 SB. Subtracting off the 1 SB that you invested with your raise, you've gained .5-1 SB in that hand. You do this two extra times in 100 hands. You gain 1-2 SB = .5-1 BB. In other words, your BB/100 just went up by .5-1. Granted, this is oversimplified and probably a little exaggerated, but I think this makes the point.

So what hands are added going from 16 VPIP to 18 VPIP? Those extra hands are the MARGINAL hands that YOU should limp. What happens when you go from 18 VPIP to 20 VPIP? You've learned how to play those extra marginal hands and some of them became raising hands. Now that you're better, there are new marginal hands for you to play. This is why I like to give the 16/8 -> 18/10 -> 20/12 progression. It's a learning process.

I left full ring playing 20/12. When I get back after 5-max (where I'm playing 30/18), I'll probably play 24/16 for a while before toning it down a little bit and settling near 22/14. But I'll find out how that goes when I get there.

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first off, the info in the FAQ isn't Ed Miller's


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Right; I was suggesting that btspider is a noted poker authority, without being a Noted Poker Authority, which is Ed's marketing line.

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secondly it was made 8months ago or so. I think most solid winning players that play 10/20full or higher raise in the 10-14% range or so

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That's odd: does the timing explain the discrepancy? Do PFR stats become obselete more quickly than my laptop? Like a lot of noobs, we hope, I read through the FAQ pretty thoroughly before posting, and still refer to it from time to time for answers to basic questions that I haven't yet internalized. I was just hoping that someone could explain the apparent contradiction, which Greg did quite handily.

Great advice. What I've learned through this discussion is that altering your stats isn't about doing something more or less, it's about playing a basic or more skillful game. I'll see if I can dig up some of those old posts. Thanks.

Thanks Greg, that's some great stuff. I feel like that's one of the next things I need to improve in my game is picking more raising spots preflop. I also fall into that category of weaning myself off the charts and am around 18/8/2.3 right now, so I'm sure I have some more spots I can raise in. Very timely thread for me.

[VoraciousReader]

Looks like it might be time for this thread again. (Also by the NPA.)

Take Off the Training Wheels

(Rock Chalk Jayhawk.)

[Greg J]

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What I've learned through this discussion is that altering your stats isn't about doing something more or less, it's about playing a basic or more skillful game.

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**DING DING** We have a winner!