Heads up out of position with a TAP

[Nightwish]

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So what you're saying is, if I want some attention, all I need to do is post a hand I played terribly, that everyone would agree I played terribly, and then the best players on this board will respond and give me detailed analyses on the play of all my hands. And if I do this repeatedly, they will keep responding despite that fact that my posts make it clear I'm an idiot. Good to know.

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[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] That's right. The hands that generate tons of discussion are ones where it's either really close or it's obvious the hero made lots of mistakes. If hero plays his hand well, there's not much left to say other than "I'd do the same," and most find that pretty boring.

Having said that, Dcifr's analysis was very good here.

[Dominic]

well, I definitely CR the flop and get in as many bets as I can. Or, like Barron suggested - lead into him. That was a little weak-tight by you. For all you know, he reraised 55 as an isolation play. Not CR the flop leaves you wandering in the desert with no information about the villain's hand.

Sure the Ace is a scare car, but only if he has exactly the hand you're afraid of. His 3-bet could mean any number of things, but it is certainly worrying. All you can do is check/call the river and hope you read him wrong.

[bernie]

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PP 20-40

Tex is UTG with 10-10, raises.

Folds around to button, TAP, who 3-bets.

Both blinds fold, and we take a flop of

10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] j [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

So like i said, opponent is very tight, and very agressive, and given the fact that he three bet me I'm thinking he's holding a monster that will stomp on my middle pair chew me up and spit me out and leave me with just enough respect for my play to continue playing cards today...

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You have more than just middle pair here. You should love this flop.

b

[TaintedRogue]

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this is absolutely 100% attrocious.

first, he can have AQs/AK/AKs/99 as well as JJ-AA.

thats 4+16+6:6*4=26:24 THAT HES A DOG to you right now.

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I have a helluva a lot of respect of respect for your play. I am going to challenge some of your statements, not that I think I am I right, but rather in the hopes you'll respond and I'll learn something.
I don't understand, however, how being 1 hand away from being 50/50 (and that's only if the TAP will 3 bet 9s) to having the best hand preflop, warrants capping it.

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sometimes i cap so if the flop comes A or K high and i bet he'll fold JJ/QQ.

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I will also, if I haven't played AA yet and my opponent didn't know me, because I would have not capped it with AA. This way, once they see I don't cap with AA/KK, they don't know what my lesser pairs are.

Wouldn't a TAG, who 3-bets 99 preflop, raise your bet on the flop, rather than muck and lick his wounds? A good TAG would know as much as to what moves are available to his opponent, no?

[i assumed you autocalled the 3 bet w/o even considering capping.

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Wouldn't one using the "auto-call" with AA/KK in this situation, give more value to his "auto-call" with lesser pocket pairs, therefore, making his hand less readable pre-flop?


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on the flop you should c'r and look to cap, AcK or AxKc will 3 bet your c'r for a free card some times after you c'r and then you cap and lead the turn.

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I would think you should bet out on the flop. He will probably raise with Ac or Kc & if you then re-raise, he is going to begin to wonder if his Kc with his pocket kings is any good if a 4th club comes. In any event, I doubt you will get a player with Kc to muck, only slow down.

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bet and then THREEBET the turn!!!! for the love of god! the As HELPS your hand. there are 3 hands im greatly concerned about him having, 1)AKcc, 2) AQcc, 3) JJ ... he can have KcKx QcQx AcKx AsKc and id say you should put more money in at every street after the flop but not the river.

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How come you're not worried about the opponent having AA? Don't we need to be concerned about not giving our opponent more action than he would give us when he believes he might be behind in the hand? Here, the opponent had the flush.....how strongly would our opponent have played AA/KK/QQ without a club? Would we have seen as much action out of him then? Our opponent would not only have a flush to worry about, but a set of Js and then As on the turn.
I think that when our Hero was re-raised on the turn, after having ck/raised, he needed to be concerned as to whether he still had the best hand. Of course, he was never ahead, but that will not occur nearly as often as other situations in which he should be aggressive.
Finally. If your opponent puts you on a set.....he knows you don't have a club....and if he does.....well, he's going to get that 4th club on the board a little more often than once every three hands. And, if he has an overpair, he has 10 outs with the flush draw, if his pair includes a club, plus a backdoor straight draw, a minor addition.
I can't help but believe that being as aggressive as you want our Hero to be, that it should be reserved for a board with more than one suit.

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given the passive ass way you played it id say 100% check call the river b/c he'll bet 2 pair and will raise any hand that beats you and only call some of the hands hed bet after you check.

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I agree his flop play was passive, however, he did ck/raise the turn. Now do we cap it when our opponent re-raises? I think that was a sure sign of him having AA or the flush, with an additional possibility of him pushing AcKx for fold equity, since he going for the club on the river.
Is he going to get that much action (the re-raise after a ck/raise) against his opponent, when his opponent doesn't have the flush or JJ/AA?

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again, you say you play w/ a bankroll and withdraw money but im seriuosly perplexed as to how??!?!? you get a set every so often, same with aces, if you dont make money off these hands, where the [censored] do you make it?? raise AA preflop in almsot every conceivable situation and put a shitload of money in that pot w/ a set.

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Once in awhile, you'll flop a set to a most threatening board and you have to gauge the amount of action you allow, to ensure you are not giving more action when you are behind, then what your opponent will give when he is behind.

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even if you're behind you have tons of outs except to JJ.

Barron

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For some reason, you seem to think that there is no way his opponent would have played the way he did with AA. Aren't there two sets he could be up against, plus the flush or flush draw on the turn? And, didn't our Hero, despite that fact, ck/raise the turn in the hopes of convincing his opponent he had the best hand?

I see no real fault in his play, other than on the flop.
The river brings the K and now he has to worry about a set of As,Ks,Js & the flush.

[DcifrThs]

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this is absolutely 100% attrocious.

first, he can have AQs/AK/AKs/99 as well as JJ-AA.

thats 4+16+6:6*4=26:24 THAT HES A DOG to you right now.

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I have a helluva a lot of respect of respect for your play. I am going to challenge some of your statements, not that I think I am I right, but rather in the hopes you'll respond and I'll learn something.
I don't understand, however, how being 1 hand away from being 50/50 (and that's only if the TAP will 3 bet 9s) to having the best hand preflop, warrants capping it.

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well its not just preflop. its getting a better hand to laydown postflop. if you call the 3bet, what do you do when it comes down K high or A high?

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sometimes i cap so if the flop comes A or K high and i bet he'll fold JJ/QQ.

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I will also, if I haven't played AA yet and my opponent didn't know me, because I would have not capped it with AA. This way, once they see I don't cap with AA/KK, they don't know what my lesser pairs are.

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my policy is to cap AA/KK OOP, as well as TT-QQ and AKs/AK and sometimes AQs depending upon the raiser...why try to get tricky when you can guarantee another .5bbs in the pot now and the ability to bet/3bet...it takes a stronger hand in an opponent to 3bet a c'r than it does to raise a flop that he hits after you cap pf.
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Wouldn't a TAG, who 3-bets 99 preflop, raise your bet on the flop, rather than muck and lick his wounds? A good TAG would know as much as to what moves are available to his opponent, no?

[i assumed you autocalled the 3 bet w/o even considering capping.

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i think you mean why wouldn't he raise 99 on a flop he misses?? or b/c you called the 3 bet or b/c you capped...either way, if you have my policy regarding capping, the TAG will NOT think, "oh, he has TT here and i can move him off it."
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Wouldn't one using the "auto-call" with AA/KK in this situation, give more value to his "auto-call" with lesser pocket pairs, therefore, making his hand less readable pre-flop?

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but thats why you dont look to get value from "autocalls" ... you get value from being agressive w/ AA/KK.

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on the flop you should c'r and look to cap, AcK or AxKc will 3 bet your c'r for a free card some times after you c'r and then you cap and lead the turn.

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I would think you should bet out on the flop. He will probably raise with Ac or Kc & if you then re-raise, he is going to begin to wonder if his Kc with his pocket kings is any good if a 4th club comes. In any event, I doubt you will get a player with Kc to muck, only slow down.

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thats an ok argument. my style involves a lot of c'ring so personally i c'r this flop and then cap it b/c lots of TAGS do go fro free cards. and i usually go with the assumption im ahead here ...
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bet and then THREEBET the turn!!!! for the love of god! the As HELPS your hand. there are 3 hands im greatly concerned about him having, 1)AKcc, 2) AQcc, 3) JJ ... he can have KcKx QcQx AcKx AsKc and id say you should put more money in at every street after the flop but not the river.

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How come you're not worried about the opponent having AA? Don't we need to be concerned about not giving our opponent more action than he would give us when he believes he might be behind in the hand? Here, the opponent had the flush.....how strongly would our opponent have played AA/KK/QQ without a club? Would we have seen as much action out of him then? Our opponent would not only have a flush to worry about, but a set of Js and then As on the turn.
I think that when our Hero was re-raised on the turn, after having ck/raised, he needed to be concerned as to whether he still had the best hand. Of course, he was never ahead, but that will not occur nearly as often as other situations in which he should be aggressive.

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see, thats the problem here...hero so vastly underplayed his hand that now on the turn, its still likely he's ahead and AcKs or AxKc may think hero hit the ace and keep raising b/c he's not only "ahead" but also freerolling vs. an ace. there's 3 combos left for AA whereas there's still 6 combos of AxKc+AcKs.

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Finally. If your opponent puts you on a set.....he knows you don't have a club....and if he does.....well, he's going to get that 4th club on the board a little more often than once every three hands. And, if he has an overpair, he has 10 outs with the flush draw, if his pair includes a club, plus a backdoor straight draw, a minor addition.
I can't help but believe that being as aggressive as you want our Hero to be, that it should be reserved for a board with more than one suit.

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redraws on behalf of hero are a swinging factor. i dont think going nuts w/ red queens here is a good idea. but a set, yes.

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given the passive ass way you played it id say 100% check call the river b/c he'll bet 2 pair and will raise any hand that beats you and only call some of the hands hed bet after you check.

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I agree his flop play was passive, however, he did ck/raise the turn. Now do we cap it when our opponent re-raises? I think that was a sure sign of him having AA or the flush, with an additional possibility of him pushing AcKx for fold equity, since he going for the club on the river.
Is he going to get that much action (the re-raise after a ck/raise) against his opponent, when his opponent doesn't have the flush or JJ/AA?

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you give this TAG so much credit...put yourself in his/her shoes. your opponent raised preflop and CALLED your 3bet and then CHECK CALLED the flop and NOW c'rs when the ace hits...i dunno but to me it looks like AxQc etc...and yes i cap the turn given the gross underplay.
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again, you say you play w/ a bankroll and withdraw money but im seriuosly perplexed as to how??!?!? you get a set every so often, same with aces, if you dont make money off these hands, where the [censored] do you make it?? raise AA preflop in almsot every conceivable situation and put a shitload of money in that pot w/ a set.

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Once in awhile, you'll flop a set to a most threatening board and you have to gauge the amount of action you allow, to ensure you are not giving more action when you are behind, then what your opponent will give when he is behind.

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good point, but people get too agressive with flush draws and this is how they get punished. not by check calling. and i dont care if i give as much action when ahead as i do when behind...because im likely 3:1 or so to be ahead.
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even if you're behind you have tons of outs except to JJ.

Barron

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For some reason, you seem to think that there is no way his opponent would have played the way he did with AA. Aren't there two sets he could be up against, plus the flush or flush draw on the turn? And, didn't our Hero, despite that fact, ck/raise the turn in the hopes of convincing his opponent he had the best hand?

I see no real fault in his play, other than on the flop.
The river brings the K and now he has to worry about a set of As,Ks,Js & the flush.

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agreed that the river blows for hero, but AK is still more likely than AA/KK/JJ AND the and you dont know where you're at b/c the flop is the time to find out. in any case, river we agree just see the showdown. oh, and no Tag has KcKx here so i dont think the K helped KK.

as to this AA/JJ/ flush thing on the turn, if i put 4 in on the flop, then i'll slow down to some serious turn agression and think AA/JJ/flush. having NOT put that money in, my OPPONENT will now think he's ahead of more hands than he is when he's behind....i dont play thinking im behind, i dont call TT preflop most of the time, i dont call AA preflop almost ever...put the money in and you'll be happy you did.

Barron

The only way the villain three bets me when I raise under the gun without holding a monster hand is to create an isolation play, so I can agree with you on this. Previously I had seen him raise with the usual, but I hadn't seen him three bet anything in this session.

I preferred to close my eyes pray for the best and check raise the turn hoping that I didnt get out-flopped, after all, if i do have the best hand, this is the more profitable play, and that is the common preach around here, i.e, maximum value.

But seriously Barron, how can you not be afraid of AA, KK, JJ, or a flush here? I know he knows that I don't come out UTG firing with A 10 or 4-4. He knows that, and he's semi-straight forward in his play. A re-raise from him means he has a premium hand, and not necessarily AK.

As you saw, he actually flopped the stone cold nuts with the stone cold nuts re-draw.

Whatever.

I still dont get how by not leading the flop or check raising the flop I played this hand so terribly. If he did have what most people always put a three better on (AK), then I played the hand correctly by letting him catch up on the turn and check raising the turn.

I think that If I lead at the flop I set myself up for disaster. By leading at him he's smart enough to know that I'm only going to lead into someone who three bet the flop with a monster or a perfect read on him, most likely the monster. Same thing if I check raise the flop.

Against any other opponent I play this hand like described above, lead at him, and hope he raises, so I can 17 bet the flop, and 19 bet the turn. Check and call the river..lol.

On the river, it was a lovely sight, I could beat precisely AK, and I couldnt even beat QQ. I hated this hand.

[dankhank]

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....i dont play thinking im behind

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this is a fascinating comment. i froze on the phrase when i read it, because it really goes against some of the fundamental philosophies i have about limit holdem. ideas involving saving bets, the inevitable mistakes of my opponents, and the long run.

it is funny that in a game where the winning player wins because he has more awareness than his opponents, that a winning strategy might actually involve some lack of awareness. willfull overconfidence. because it gives the tangible result of doing things like capping TT and being able to drive off QQ/JJ on an ace high flop.

lately i feel i have gained discipline in my game, at the expense of deception. i'm trying to figure out how to get the deception back, and i'm beginning to suspect that maybe it's through process (ie 'i dont play thinking i'm behind') rather than picking moments, that i'll add deception, put my opponents to tougher decisions, and make them want to tangle with me less.

but another part of me sees reckless, optimistic attitudes like 'i dont play thinking i'm behind' as only useful for people running well, and is a dangerous mindset to carry at a brutal place like the poker table, where you've got to be realistic about everything and always on your guard.

[DcifrThs]

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The only way the villain three bets me when I raise under the gun without holding a monster hand is to create an isolation play, so I can agree with you on this. Previously I had seen him raise with the usual, but I hadn't seen him three bet anything in this session.

I preferred to close my eyes pray for the best and check raise the turn hoping that I didnt get out-flopped, after all, if i do have the best hand, this is the more profitable play, and that is the common preach around here, i.e, maximum value.

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man people around here can be slow.

what are the odds you're behind ASSUMINGhe 3 bets you with AK(S)/AA-99??? real tough one man...1 AK beats you, 1 JJ beats you...so 4*6+12: 3+1=36:4=9:1 so YOU ARE 9:1 TO BE AHEAD ON THIS FREAKING FLOP, AND HE IS DRAWING very often, you are letting him off the hook herei dont care what he has this time. get the money in there...THATS maximum value!!!!

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But seriously Barron, how can you not be afraid of AA, KK, JJ, or a flush here? I know he knows that I don't come out UTG firing with A 10 or 4-4. He knows that, and he's semi-straight forward in his play. A re-raise from him means he has a premium hand, and not necessarily AK.

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you underplayed your hand. when you underplay your hand, your opponents can overplay THEIR hands b/c they think you are weaker than you are. a real strong hand would AT LEAST TRY to get 2 bets in on the flop, i'd 3bet your turn c'r given the way you played it w/ AxKc or AcKx, maybe im wrong but that would look like you hit that ace. and AJ/AT are the only ones that beats it ... in any case...of course you CAN be afriad of JJ/AA or a flush, but you underplayed your hand, so i dont try to guess as to whats going on when i gave the wrong signals early on.

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As you saw, he actually flopped the stone cold nuts with the stone cold nuts re-draw.

Whatever.

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dont care what he had

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I still dont get how by not leading the flop or check raising the flop I played this hand so terribly. If he did have what most people always put a three better on (AK), then I played the hand correctly by letting him catch up on the turn and check raising the turn.

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he'd put in 4 bets on the flop w/ KKc/QQc/AAc/AA/KK/QQ very very very likely. you let him off cheap=cost yourself 1.5bbs those times he WOUDL have put that money in=lost money=poor play.


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I think that If I lead at the flop I set myself up for disaster. By leading at him he's smart enough to know that I'm only going to lead into someone who three bet the flop with a monster or a perfect read on him, most likely the monster. Same thing if I check raise the flop.

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you are overthinking and playing scared.

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Against any other opponent I play this hand like described above, lead at him, and hope he raises, so I can 17 bet the flop, and 19 bet the turn. Check and call the river..lol.

On the river, it was a lovely sight, I could beat precisely AK, and I couldnt even beat QQ. I hated this hand.

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i cant do any more here.

Barron

So in your opinion, by misplaying this flop I misplayed the turn and the river is a check-call? (i played the river perfect!!!)

Well, I appreciate the info. I would like you to take into consideration that the subject of this post was playing this hand against a TAP. A very very good TAP. So you're saying that I should disregard my opponents play when I have a big hand and proceed with normal protocol? Okay, I can understand how by doing this, you will lose a pot now and then, but by making this play everytime you take out the guess work and it becomes a very large +e.v. play???

I respect your opinion, Barron, but tell me, if you know your opponent well, do you adjust your play accordingly? Or do you disregard and proceed as normal...???

[DcifrThs]

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So in your opinion, by misplaying this flop I misplayed the turn and the river is a check-call? (i played the river perfect!!!)

Well, I appreciate the info. I would like you to take into consideration that the subject of this post was playing this hand against a TAP. A very very good TAP. So you're saying that I should disregard my opponents play when I have a big hand and proceed with normal protocol? Okay, I can understand how by doing this, you will lose a pot now and then, but by making this play everytime you take out the guess work and it becomes a very large +e.v. play???

I respect your opinion, Barron, but tell me, if you know your opponent well, do you adjust your play accordingly? Or do you disregard and proceed as normal...???

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well a little knowledge is a dangerous thing i guess.

when i said " i dont play assuming im behind" i clearly mean when i flop a great hand w/ a great redraw.

just learn a lot more first, then come back to some of these concepts.

do you still call a UTG raise in the SB w/ AA after 7 callers?

Barron