7-Handed B&M 20/40

[vmacosta]

Game has been short for a while.
I raise UTG with 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
3 degenerate coldcallers call, 1 fold, SB (tight/weak) calls, BB (major drunk fish) calls.
Flop is J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Check, check, bet, call, call, call, call.
Turn is T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Check, check, bet, call, 2 folds, SB slowly and deliberately puts out 12 chips for a raise, BB pauses and then calls, I 3-bet, SB caps, BB calls.
SB bets dark.
River Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
BB calls all-in, I ask SB if he'd have felt stupid if the board had paired after he'd bet in the dark and he mumbles that he'd have dealt with it or something. I call.
Did I overplay my hand? Can I fold the river?

[ QUOTE ]
Game has been short for a while.
I raise UTG with 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
3 degenerate coldcallers call, 1 fold, SB (tight/weak) calls, BB (major drunk fish) calls.
Flop is J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Check, check, bet, call, call, call, call.
Turn is T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Check, check, bet, call, 2 folds, SB slowly and deliberately puts out 12 chips for a raise, BB pauses and then calls, I 3-bet, SB caps, BB calls.
SB bets dark.
River Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
BB calls all-in, I ask SB if he'd have felt stupid if the board had paired after he'd bet in the dark and he mumbles that he'd have dealt with it or something. I call.
Did I overplay my hand? Can I fold the river?

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When the small blind checkraises the turn theres a good chance he has the straight, but theres also a good chance he has somekind of twopair hand or bottom set. You still need to raise the turn to protect your hand in case the person behind you has a gutshot draw. Once the small blind caps this means he has the straight if he is weak tight. Once the river comes and the small blind bets in the dark and the big blind calls this pot is huge. It is ok to still fold here if you are 100% confident in your read of the small blind as being weak tight, if you are not entirely sure, than you need to call this river. I know one thing, calling the river with sets in huge pots can never be that bad of a play even when the situation looks hopeless. So to answer your question, you did not overplay your hand in my opinion, you played it just fine.

[Pepsquad]

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I know one thing, calling the river with sets in huge pots can never be that bad of a play even when the situation looks hopeless.

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Precisely. And I don't think you overplayed the turn.

[Fianchetto]

Overall, I think you played the hand well, and I probably make the crying call on the river too.

I posted a similar hand a while back. I flopped bottom set, got checkraised by a weak/passive when the turn put up a possible straight, I 3-bet, he 4-bet. And I folded the river heads-up for one bet when the board didn't pair.

Even though I'm pretty sure I made a good laydown there, I got reamed on here for that fold. But some advice that made sense was: If you are going to fold the river against a player like that don't 3-bet the turn. His checkraise is almost the same range of hands he would need for a 4-bet which is exactly a straight. I know it sounds weak, but by just calling you get to showdown for those 3-bets, and you can pump it up on the river if you fill up.

Again, it's very opponent dependent, and against normal/average opposition who would raise you with two pair I think you played it fine. But if he is one of those weak passive guys that needs the nuts or close to it to put in a raise on the big streets, then consider just calling down the checkraise unless the board pairs.

[pheasant tail (no 18)]

It's hard for me to believe that someone who could bet the river in the dark w/ a 79 or Q9 is so predictably weak tight that you can lay a set down getting 20:1 or so. Esp. in a Cali 20 game. From my experience in these games, virtually anyone is capable of turning it on in a big pot now and then.

Perhaps that sort of thinking is a leak for me, but it is minor compared to some of the others.

If your read is that good, I agree with F. that you should just call the turn C/R. Mine is rarely over 95% against weak players so I 3-bet also.

The Qs is a rough card and I doubt you win this 1/2 of the time. BB was drawing to something and just about everything got there.

PT

[ QUOTE ]
Overall, I think you played the hand well, and I probably make the crying call on the river too.

I posted a similar hand a while back. I flopped bottom set, got checkraised by a weak/passive when the turn put up a possible straight, I 3-bet, he 4-bet. And I folded the river heads-up for one bet when the board didn't pair.

Even though I'm pretty sure I made a good laydown there, I got reamed on here for that fold. But some advice that made sense was: If you are going to fold the river against a player like that don't 3-bet the turn. His checkraise is almost the same range of hands he would need for a 4-bet which is exactly a straight. I know it sounds weak, but by just calling you get to showdown for those 3-bets, and you can pump it up on the river if you fill up.

Again, it's very opponent dependent, and against normal/average opposition who would raise you with two pair I think you played it fine. But if he is one of those weak passive guys that needs the nuts or close to it to put in a raise on the big streets, then consider just calling down the checkraise unless the board pairs.

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Just calling the turn checkraise vs a weak tight player may be an acceptable strategy in a heads up pot. But in this hand our hero is in a large multiway pot with a player behind him. It is very critical that the hero 3 bet the villains check raise to pressure the guy behind to fold out a possible gutshot draw. Protecting our hand is more important than worrying about whether we are trailing or not and trying to save bets. Heads up, against a really weaktight player I can understand this play of just calling down unless the hero boats up, but in this large pot with a player behind us, the hero must raise. It would be a real shame if the hero just called the turn checkraise and the villain actually did only have two pair, but the guy behind the hero rivers the straight. This cruel event doesnt have to happen often in a large pot to make just calling the turn checkraise the wrong strategy. Dont try to save bets in large multiway pots, raise and protect your hand.

[vmacosta]

Thanks for the responses. I think some of the posters missed that on the turn BB ca;;ed 2 cold so my 3-bet was purely for value as I was closing the action and BB IMO clearly had a draw that he was gonna see the river with. I 3-bet knowing there that the majority of the time SB has the str8 and would cap but BB would call with his draw so I felt it was very close. When the obvious str8 card comes and BB calls SB's bet, I hated my call...I'd say I was 95% sure that SB had str8 and 50% sure BB did too!

I think you played it fine.

In a game with 3 degenerate coldcallers to act right behind you, then the blinds, I'd consider limping preflop.