Struggling against the inevitable

David Ottosen · #1 02-28-2003, 02:05 AM

I am in EP with Q [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] . UTG limps and I raise. Oddly, four people cold call behind me, the blinds both fold, but the limper calls as well. 6 people see the flop for 2 bets each.

Flop: J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]

UTG checks and I check. Next two check, then a bet. Button raises and UTG cold calls. I checkraise 3-bet. The two checkers behind fold, the original better folds, and the button caps. UTG cold calls again, and I call.

Turn: [J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]]7 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]

UTG checks and I check. Button bets, UTG calls, and I call.

River: [J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]

UTG checks and I check. Button bets, UTG checkraises, and I fold. Button now folds.

Thoughts on this hand?

travisand · #2 02-28-2003, 02:31 AM

Why did you check-call on the turn?

Why not bet out? You just three bet the flop and a card fell on the turn that is not very likely to help anybody and you check and call. I would bet hoping to get raised and maybe convince the UTG player to fold. Unless these players are very tricky I would have to keep pushing on this hand.

River--Since you have gotten yourself into a position to have to call two bets cold against a guy who was on a fairly apparent flush draw. I would have to fold here also.

mobes · #3 02-28-2003, 02:52 AM

I would have bet the turn, but I often have trouble releasing the biggies when I know I'm beat. The button seems like an awful player.

JTG51 · #4 02-28-2003, 03:26 AM

The button seems like an awful player.

I'm just curious, why do you think so? What if I told you the button had 66? Would you say he played that hand terribly?

CrackerZack · #5 02-28-2003, 10:13 AM

This brings up a point I was thinking about and looking at last night. When you are last to act, how close is it to bet, when the situation seems oh so ripe for a checkraise? This situation here, to me at least, with UTG limping, calling everything cold, etc etc, this absolutely SCREAMS Ax flush draw. This situation looks like your chance of being called on a value bet is certainly less than being check-raised and either having to fold, or make a crying call. Last night I was playing and raised first in UTG+1 w/JJ, only the SB called. Flop came QTx, check, bet, call, turn was K total rainbow. Now I had see people call with lesser pairs in this game but this player was new and he checked to me... i took a second but decided to bet because I thought my chance of picking up the pot right there or hitting the straight on the end warranted it... but had a nagging feeling I was gonna be check-raised. I was, blank hit the river, and it was bet-fold. I was thinking about it more and more and wondering if I should checked behind on the turn? Or am I just being weak tight results oriented?

-Z

bernie · #6 02-28-2003, 10:48 AM

any reason you just called the turn? bet it...what are you waiting for?

b

bernie · #7 02-28-2003, 10:50 AM

i echo the question of the other response,,,what makes the button an awful player? i dont see any evidence of that...

b

Homer · #8 02-28-2003, 10:54 AM

I would have led out on the turn. If raised again I would go into call-down mode.

On the river, I think you have an easy fold. If UTG doesn't have a flush then he sure fooled me.

I can't believe button folded for one more bet in this fairly large pot.

-- Homer

davidross · #9 02-28-2003, 10:59 AM

Unless I knew something about the button being over-aggressive I would consider check-folding the turn. I can’t put him on AJ with the pre-flop raise so I think he’s got JJ, 66, or 55. I’m a little surprised everyone is suggesting betting the turn. What do you put the button on that we’re ahead of? Do you fold to the next raise?

Mikey · #10 02-28-2003, 11:20 AM

Dave I love the flop play, checkraising (3 bet) gives you the best chance to win this pot and it's great!! Nice play. Very creative.

Now the turn.....

I know you didn't like the button capping it there on flop but let's see how this turn develops. The 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] falling shouldn't really deter you from not betting here.

UTG checks to you. I would bet here, as as much as it may hurt and as much as you have to hold your breath, you have to bet.

You bet here for numerous reasons

1) UTG is still checking, so he's probably on a draw
2) You get to find out if the button was serious or not with all the flop action.
3) You bet so if the button does raise it gives a good chance to knock out UTG or if not charge him the max to draw.
4) You don't want to give a free card here, look how many cards can cripple your hand, your hand is vulnerable as it is... you can't afford this to be checked around.

You want to maximize your chance of winning this pot, so you have to bet.

Also a players true face comes out on the turn so bet it here...FIND OUT NOW, HERE AND NOW!! if the button raises again....and UTG cold calls again, then I think it's time to either chuck the hand away or if want to gamble since this is a huge pot (call),and pray for that Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img].

The other ways I see you playing the turn would be to check and fold to a bet, if you have a good read on the button or UTG and think that maybe one of them flopped a set, then folding has it's merits.