interesting turn card

[Sam T.]

My first assumption here is that the turn doesn't give him a flush. (I know he might, but I'm coming around to the point of view that when you shut down because a flush is possible you lose a lot of value from your good hands.)

So if we take this as our point of departure, what is the play? I like a check behind here. A river spade could be bad, but I'm willing to take my chances.

The problem with betting is that when you bet into a flushing board, people get nervous, and I don't want him dumping KQ or 99.

Check and call a river bet unless a fourth spade falls - its the only way you are going to get more money from worse hands, and it keeps the pot small if he's got you beat.

villain is first to act after river. just say a spade does not fall on river and you checked turn (to him indicating weakeness). What are you going to do if he pushes (say with his KQ)? no longer looks like we are keeping the pot small (and even if he was on a donkey draw say A 5), he more than likely has now effectively pushed you off of your hand. I think the correct play here is a continuation bet at the turn.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
My first assumption here is that the turn doesn't give him a flush. (I know he might, but I'm coming around to the point of view that when you shut down because a flush is possible you lose a lot of value from your good hands.)

[/ QUOTE ]

this may be true in general, but here the board is so dry other than the flush draw. villain will usually c/r with a hand like 77. the only check/calling hands are A2, a flush draw, maybe A4/54, or air/overcards. i think the odds are good that villain now has a flush, and i don't want to be moved off my 4-outer. and i don't want to go broke if he does have it.

but the rest of your post hits why i checked behind pretty well.

[schwza]

i checked. call this bet?

***** Hand History for Game 2941297210 *****
30/60 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 16929395) - Thu Oct 27 21:54:51 EDT 2005
Table Super Thursday(498013) Table 19 (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: krames44 (1877)
Seat 2: markhomer1 (455)
Seat 3: CalmBomber (810)
Seat 4: Danival (1400)
Seat 5: toPnOeviLi (590)
Seat 6: mahalkita1 (6071)
Seat 7: HERO (925)
Seat 8: bigbangs111 (1140)
Seat 9: sokio (1110)
Seat 10: Licker_Poker (260)
CalmBomber posts small blind (15)
Danival posts big blind (30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Ah, Kc ]
toPnOeviLi folds.
mahalkita1 folds.
HERO raises (90) to 90
bigbangs111 folds.
sokio folds.
Licker_Poker folds.
krames44 folds.
markhomer1 folds.
CalmBomber folds.
Danival calls (60)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 4s, 2s, 2h ]
Danival checks.
HERO bets (120)
Danival calls (120)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Ks ]
Danival checks.
HERO checks.
** Dealing River ** : [ 4d ] pot 435, my stack 715
Danival bets (400)
HERO?

[Black Aces 518]

I hate the 4, but I think I'm calling here. He could have unimproved overcards, KQ, KJ, KT or a mid pair quite a lot, and he's likely betting most rivers after you check the turn behind.

Plus if he's read HoH, he knows that a bet of more than half your stack is likely to induce a fold, so if he wanted a call, he should bet 250-300. I doubt he has, but just to toss that in.

[SossMan]

think you gotta pay him off since you checked the turn. I would bet the turn here. Prob 320 or so. Enough that he might get frisky w/ KQ or black 77. Him folding isn't the worst thing in the world since a fourflush is troublesome.

[Rizen]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually have no problems checking this here.

There's the possiblity that villian has a medium pair and figured it was good on that flop. He may have been on the flush draw and now is slow playing it. He may have taken one off with two over cards.

The advantages of checking are that you can get to a cheap showdown on the river. I check the turn and plan to call most bets he makes on the river. You may get a worse hand to bluff as they may think the king scared you instead of helped you. A hand like 88 may bet thinking you have AQ or a worse K will most likely bet here. If he does have the flush you're not going to go broke here.

The disadvantges to checking this turn are if he has a mid pair with a spade and a fourth spade hits the river. You get away easily though if a fourth spade hits and he bets though. Also he may hit a two outer if he does have a mid pocket pair.

If a blank hits the river and he checks I will value bet my kings since he may think I have AQ and am taking another stab and call with a worse hand. If he reraises I will seriously consider folding it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can agree with you that pushing here probably isn't optimal, but I really think checking here is beyond weak/tight. Giving a free card here would be criminal.

I think you're way ahead here more often than not, and I'm still looking to get additional value out of this hand. Anywhere between 1/2 pot and full pot bet IMO is the best move.

-Rizen

Edit: Didn't realize hero had position, so changed a few comments.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
think you gotta pay him off since you checked the turn. I would bet the turn here. Prob 320 or so. Enough that he might get frisky w/ KQ or black 77. Him folding isn't the worst thing in the world since a fourflush is troublesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do think are the odds he has a flush on the turn? i thought they were quite high at the time.

[Sam T.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My first assumption here is that the turn doesn't give him a flush. (I know he might, but I'm coming around to the point of view that when you shut down because a flush is possible you lose a lot of value from your good hands.)

[/ QUOTE ]

this may be true in general, but here the board is so dry other than the flush draw. villain will usually c/r with a hand like 77. the only check/calling hands are A2, a flush draw, maybe A4/54, or air/overcards. i think the odds are good that villain now has a flush, and i don't want to be moved off my 4-outer. and i don't want to go broke if he does have it.

but the rest of your post hits why i checked behind pretty well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point, and maybe I'm just used to playing against calling stations. If the villain (ever the optimist) looks at your flop bet and says, "Whiffed overcards" he'll call all day long with garbage, hoping to take it away from you on a later street.

When you check behind, you KNOW he's going to bet the river, so yeah, you gotta call.

[The Venetian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
think you gotta pay him off since you checked the turn. I would bet the turn here. Prob 320 or so. Enough that he might get frisky w/ KQ or black 77. Him folding isn't the worst thing in the world since a fourflush is troublesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do think are the odds he has a flush on the turn? i thought they were quite high at the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised you think that with the action so far. I can think of a lot of hands that would call that flop, hoping you c-bet, then whiffed, to see how you like the turn. The river bet also seems a bit high for someone who wants you to call, as well.

I'm definitely leaning toward a call, but I would have preferred a turn bet, then check-check on the river. I'm comfortable losing some chips here, but probably not willing to play against an all-in.