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#1
10-14-2005, 07:41 AM
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Hi, My name is Smoothcall and i\'m a tilter
Ok i have 2 questions. One is how much does tilt hurt a winrate. I know it would depend on how often, and how bad you tilt. But just looking for a general ideas.
The 2nd part of the question is can tilt be a good thing(or at least not as horrible as it looks) if done only once in a while? This sounds like a stupid question but i will elaborate. I mean by tilting sometimes it can change people image of you and think you are a nutjob. And it may take people a long time to forget that time you reraised with 95 off preflop. When it was only a freak instance for you. But they will expect it the next time they see you or every hand they play aginst you. And you will be back in rock mode and can get him for alot more bets in future hands. But the reverse to that is it will be very hard to steal and semi-bluff this player in the future. So i guess i have a 3rd question. And this is the one that i have thought about alot in the past. Is it better to have a loose maniac image or a rock image. I have heard Mason Malmuth say in limit holdem the tight image is better because the amount in the pot is always more important than future bets gained(excuse me Mason if i'm incorrect and you didn't say this, but i remember hearing or reading that before) in a pot. I have agreed with this in the past and still do. But i wonder how you guys feel about this. As Mike Caro has the philosophy the looser maniac image is better. I think in NL the loose maniac image is definately better. But he believes this for limit as well. So which philosophy is right? Sorry if i'm rambling and maybe should have made 2 different posts one on tilting and one on image. But i just woke up and not thining clearly yet lol. So what you guys think? 
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#2
10-14-2005, 11:00 AM
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Re: Hi, My name is Smoothcall and i\'m a tilter
While I agree with Malmuth that the bets already in the pot are more important than additional bets, and an image that can win you the pot is much more important than an image that gets you additional bets, I disagree with him on what type of image best gets the job done.
I think an aggressive unpredictible image has the effect of intimidating your opponents into playing more passively which gives you free draws and prevents you from being bet off of marginal but winning hands. A tight image on the other hand, especially in today's environment, actually encourages people to make those plays against you, with the expectation that you're more likely to fold.
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#3
10-14-2005, 11:11 AM
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Re: Hi, My name is Smoothcall and i\'m a tilter
[ QUOTE ]
I think an aggressive unpredictible image has the effect of intimidating your opponents into playing more passively which gives you free draws and prevents you from being bet off of marginal but winning hands. A tight image on the other hand, especially in today's environment, actually encourages people to make those plays against you, with the expectation that you're more likely to fold. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, I couldn't agree more. I think the best image is of someone who is going to fire on every street with absolutely nothing, will pay off with any piece of the board, and is willing to go multiple bets with a lot less than top pair. How you get that image without actually being that person is another matter altogether.
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#4
10-14-2005, 11:18 AM
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Re: Hi, My name is Smoothcall and i\'m a tilter
[ QUOTE ]
A tight image on the other hand, especially in today's environment, actually encourages people to make those plays against you, with the expectation that you're more likely to fold. [/ QUOTE ] Is that so bad? Different players react differently to a tight image. Many B&M players and a minority of online players will be afraid to bet and raise even with very strong hands. So you end up losing less when you have the worst hand. That is another benefit of the tight-aggressive image. I don't think the unpredictability is needed for the intimidation. Most good tight-aggressive players already have enough deception in their game that they are unpredictable. Many online players will try to run all over you if they perceive you as tight. That makes the game more difficult to play, but I don't really see it as a problem unless you fold too much.
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#5
10-14-2005, 12:22 PM
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Re: Hi, My name is Smoothcall and i\'m a tilter
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] A tight image on the other hand, especially in today's environment, actually encourages people to make those plays against you, with the expectation that you're more likely to fold. [/ QUOTE ] Is that so bad? Different players react differently to a tight image. Many B&M players and a minority of online players will be afraid to bet and raise even with very strong hands. So you end up losing less when you have the worst hand. That is another benefit of the tight-aggressive image. I don't think the unpredictability is needed for the intimidation. Most good tight-aggressive players already have enough deception in their game that they are unpredictable. Many online players will try to run all over you if they perceive you as tight. That makes the game more difficult to play, but I don't really see it as a problem unless you fold too much. [/ QUOTE ] I think it is a major problem. Fact is that in most hands you are not going to have a very strong hand. Do you really want to be put in a position of constantly having to make a tough decision of having to reraise with not much (increasing your risk), fold (risk getting bluffed), or call down with marginal hand? Plus you may now be intimidated into playing more passively to avoid getting raised, hence giving up value betting and giving up those pots where neither of you have much. You almost always want your opponents to play passively, scared, and predictibly. Yes, there are a few times where you'll have a good hand in which case you'd want excess action. But the occaisional extra 2 or 3 bets those rare occaisions is much more than offset by all those pots you wind up surrendering.
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#6
10-14-2005, 01:42 PM
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Re: Hi, My name is Smoothcall and i\'m a tilter
[ QUOTE ]
While I agree with Malmuth that the bets already in the pot are more important than additional bets, and an image that can win you the pot is much more important than an image that gets you additional bets, I disagree with him on what type of image best gets the job done. I think an aggressive unpredictible image has the effect of intimidating your opponents into playing more passively which gives you free draws and prevents you from being bet off of marginal but winning hands. [/ QUOTE ] Bet! Try me gunslinger! [ QUOTE ] A tight image on the other hand, especially in today's environment, actually encourages people to make those plays against you, with the expectation that you're more likely to fold. [/ QUOTE ] Bet! Try me! Borgata, any day, anytime. I would love to see you going from 240 hands an hour, 4 tabling it & playing 58 hands an hour, to playing sharp poker, being dealt 28 hands an hour.
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#8
10-14-2005, 03:56 PM
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Re: Hi, My name is Smoothcall and i\'m a tilter
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I couldn't agree more. I think the best image is of someone who is going to fire on every street with absolutely nothing, will pay off with any piece of the board, and is willing to go multiple bets with a lot less than top pair. How you get that image without actually being that person is another matter altogether. [/ QUOTE ] The more shorthanded the game, the more this applies, but this is good advice either way.
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#9
10-14-2005, 05:52 PM
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Re: Hi, My name is Smoothcall and i\'m a tilter
"Tilting" which means purposely playing in a manner that one knows is incorrect (-EV play) for no other reason than because one is frustrated cannot be correct. Purposely playing in a manner to induce opponents to make mistakes is correct and most commonly called "changing gears" when done by a pro poker player.
Image is important against weak unobservant novice players that do not update their player evaluations frequently. Experienced players are very capable of quickly evaluating and reevaluating the quality of their opponents play and adapting accordingly. A loose image could be very costly to establish and might not buy you anything even if you get the point accross that you are here to "gambler". Imagine if you will Mike Caro taking his "image" profundity to the 4-8k Bellagio game. I believe his shenanigans would recieve their just rewards. Yes I bet those fellows would find Caro types both amusing and rewarding. Vince
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#10
10-14-2005, 07:45 PM
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Re: Hi, My name is Smoothcall and i\'m a tilter
[ QUOTE ]
"Tilting" which means purposely playing in a manner that one knows is incorrect (-EV play) for no other reason than because one is frustrated cannot be correct. Purposely playing in a manner to induce opponents to make mistakes is correct and most commonly called "changing gears" when done by a pro poker player. [/ QUOTE ] The two can achieve the same effect, and the occasional tilt will probably be more convincing. That said, it's not likely that one will tilt at a good frequency that will be +EV.
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