I step back for a second...

[Bill C]

That 3 bet on the turn is bad news. His stop 'n go and then the reraise suggest he may have made his hand, and he's prolly gonna show you a flush or maybe a set.

You could make your flush on the river and still lose. You could call here and call down the river, but I think you could also make a pretty good case for tossing this one right now.

Just my $.02 worth...

bc

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
That 3 bet on the turn is bad news. His stop 'n go and then the reraise suggest he may have made his hand, and he's prolly gonna show you a flush or maybe a set.

You could make your flush on the river and still lose. You could call here and call down the river, but I think you could also make a pretty good case for tossing this one right now.

Just my $.02 worth...

bc

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Bill...it's been a while.

I'm normally pretty sharp with hand-reading, but I really got confused here.

This guy certainly wouldn't bet into me with a flush draw, I knew that.

Anyway, this was one where I was willing to pay 2 BB just to see his hand, so I called down.

He played A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] like a champion, and I was disappointed that I hadn't thought of it. This was one of the few times that I actually think my opponent was thinking on the 3rd level.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
He played A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] like a champion, and I was disappointed that I hadn't thought of it. This was one of the few times that I actually think my opponent was thinking on the 3rd level.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he played this particularly well, FWIW. I like the bet-call, bet-3bet line with the right hand, but not with AJs on this flop with this turn.

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He played A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] like a champion, and I was disappointed that I hadn't thought of it. This was one of the few times that I actually think my opponent was thinking on the 3rd level.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he played this particularly well, FWIW. I like the bet-call, bet-3bet line with the right hand, but not with AJs on this flop with this turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would you consider "the right hand" in this spot?

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He played A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] like a champion, and I was disappointed that I hadn't thought of it. This was one of the few times that I actually think my opponent was thinking on the 3rd level.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he played this particularly well, FWIW. I like the bet-call, bet-3bet line with the right hand, but not with AJs on this flop with this turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would you consider "the right hand" in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think with TP + FD, with the PF 3-bettor to his immediate left, and with another player to act after QTip, he should be check-raising this field on the flop instead of leading, and I don't think it is that close.

His turn lead is OK, and a turn C/R would be OK, too. His read on QTip would help make the decision, as he should probably be thinking hard about (1) whether QTip is likely to raise the donk, and (2) how the other player will react to 1 bet versus 2 getting 9+:1 when facing a QTip lead. He should also of course be considering whether QTip is willing and able to check the turn through despite the fact that his flop raise didn't buy him the button.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
I think with TP + FD, with the PF 3-bettor to his immediate left, and with another player to act after QTip, he should be check-raising this field on the flop instead of leading, and I don't think it is that close.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Again, this is going to depend on his read on me, but I promise you I 3 bet his c/r.

The pot is big. He has a very nice draw, but who cares. Think of it this way:

He has AJs UTG and raises, MP calls, I'm the BB and 3 bet, he calls, MP calls. Flop comes as is. I bet, you ?

You certainly should raise. I do so not because I'm pumping a draw, although that's nice, but I'm protecting my hand. The sooner I can win this pot the better.

So, in the same way, I'd be looking to protect my hand here. If he thinks I'll raise overs, and I might with something like AdKs, then I feel it's the best way to get protection in this hand. With c/ring, I think you're making yourself hit your draw more frequently to win.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
Again, this is going to depend on his read on me, but I promise you I 3 bet his c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

But that depends on you hand -- he doesn't know what you have, but he certainly is not too disappointed if you three-bet his C/R, especially if MP comes along. He's got 14 outs to the best hand unless you have specifically JJ or AA, and in those cases he still has more than 9 outs.

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is big. He has a very nice draw, but who cares.

[/ QUOTE ] He has more than a draw. He has TPTK plus a draw, and your PF 3-bet doesn't mean that your hand is necessarily better when the flop comes around.

[ QUOTE ]
Think of it this way:

He has AJs UTG and raises, MP calls, I'm the BB and 3 bet, he calls, MP calls. Flop comes as is. I bet, you ?

You certainly should raise. I do so not because I'm pumping a draw, although that's nice, but I'm protecting my hand. The sooner I can win this pot the better.

So, in the same way, I'd be looking to protect my hand here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would raise in that circumstance. But that doesn't mean I'd lead in the actual hand. In order to protect my hand in the actual hand I have to both lead AND count on the fact that you'd raise AND hope that MP3 who called 3 cold pre-flop doesn't have a hand that can properly call 2 cold getting ~7:1. If the parlay for protecting looks thin, then I'll focus on value instead, and I wouldn't sacrafice the value in bets going in on the flop for the speculative value of protecting my hand OOP on the turn, especially if the strength of my hand can increase appreciably with any of 9 outs making me much more interesting in collecting bets than in protecting.

[ QUOTE ]
If he thinks I'll raise overs, and I might with something like AdKs, then I feel it's the best way to get protection in this hand. With c/ring, I think you're making yourself hit your draw more frequently to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I am beating you on the flop, how many outs does MP3 have if he is behind? How am I going to face him with enough bets even those times when you cooperate and raise for me each time to convince him to laydown? What can MP3 have that I should be so worried about protection? Worst case he has an OESD (6 outs) or KQ (9 outs) or he has me beat (and then I'm not protecting). MP3 is, in the vast majority of circumstances drawing very slim, and I'd actually like to have him calling bets without proper odds rather than folding.

[LImitPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think he played this particularly well, FWIW. I like the bet-call, bet-3bet line with the right hand, but not with AJs on this flop with this turn

[/ QUOTE ]

Against the "raise the donkbet" type of player this is the perfect hand to do it on"

If my notes indicate you are a "raise the donkbet" type of player then I am taking this line everytime time

[BigEndian]

Edit: I need to go to bed.

- Jim