notetaking in live play

[THWAP!]

I have no idea where to ask this, so I'm asking this here.

You play online, you take notes. Do you do it live? If so, I assume you carry a little notebook at the table. What kinda' notes do you write in it? The same type of stuff you'd write online?

I'm just curious.

[AKQJ10]

There was a thread about this a couple of weeks ago in Beginners. Consensus you're probably best off excusing yourself on a "smoking break" before taking notes. I write down my buyins and hourly chip count, which amuses some people, but I would never write notes about them. Even my notes about myself are probably -EV.

[Al Schoonmaker]

I emphatically disagree that notes are -EV. I wrote a series of articles on note-taking that you can read at cardplayer.com. Click on magazine, writers, and my name.

I did not mention it in the articles, but do mention it in my forthcoming book, "Poker Psychology Essays." Here is a quotation from Harrington on Hold'em, Vol I.

[The refusal to take notes] is based on denial about our own limitations and ignorance about what real players actually do. Do you think that Dan Harrington is not a real player? He is the most successful player of the last decade in the World Series Championship, with four final tables and a first place finish. He is also the primary author of two extremely successful books. He knows what the best players do.
“In top-class poker you will encounter many players who, after each session, go home and write down everything they’ve seen at the table... There are players with enormous written notebooks on the habits of hundreds of other players.” (Footnote: Harrington on Hold’em, Vol. I, p. 179.)
Unless you think you are smarter or have a better memory than Dan Harrington and the people he plays against, stop pretending that you don’t need notes.

Regards,

Al

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
I emphatically disagree that notes are -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, forgive my lack of clarity. Taking notes IN VIEW OF OPPONENTS is -EV, even if the notes have nothing to do with their play. Mine concern only my hourly results, but they still get comments and probably encourage opponents to play better.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

One of the interesting things about note-taking is how little people seem to notice/care. I don't take notes in live play, but remember watching Dr. Al take a small stack of notecards out of his shirt pocket, jot down a few notes (I assume on the other players), then tuck them back into his pocket. Nobody said a word, or even seemed to notice.

[beekeeper]

OK, now I'm going to reveal myself for the geek that I am. After reading Mr. Schoonmaker's columns on notetaking in Card Play magazine, I decided I wanted to take notes, but I didn't want to take notes on my opponents during live play.

I made myself a sort of cheat sheet for taking notes during games at my local home game, copied it, and taped it to a spiral of index cards. At first the guys at my game were a little suspicious and a lot of them asked to see what I was taking notes on--they were concerned I was taking notes on them. After I showed them, they didn't seem to care--as far as I know.

My cheat sheet was set up so that all I had to do was check a series of boxes, and write down my starting hands, the flop, turn & river. I recorded the blind amounts, what action I took on the flop, turn and river (fold, call, check, bet, raise, reraise), and what the outcome was. I didn't always have time to record all the info, but I recorded as much as I could. At a 10 player game, you can write stuff down during the deal. I worried that players could see my starting hand selection, though, and that if I spent too much time on my notes, I wouldn't be observing the table enough.

I'm not sure whether this info is useful in the long run--my regular game took a summer hiatus and I haven't used it at the local games I've been able to find.

I posted a poll about this in the "beginners" section to see where others stood on the issue. The results were inconclusive. Out of 44 who took the poll, only 4 took notes. Most people who expressed an opinion said they wouldn't take notes on their opponenets during live play.

With regard to my own notes, I took them enough to notice an interesting trend. Our tournament blind structure was aggressive, so that we could finish a 20-30 person tournament in 1&1/2-2hrs. In the tournaments I placed, I usually only played 4-7 hands, and of those, I won them all or all but one, and it only went to a showdown may 2x on average. In the tournaments where I did not place, I played less than 4 or more than 7 hands, saw more show downs, and lost to hands I should have been able to see by the turn. It was useful in the sense that I could see some 2nd best hands I chose to chase. It was also useful to see how tight/loose I was playing and how that affect my win rate.

Sorry so long-winded, but I'm still trying to evaluate the benefits and methodology that will work for myself as well. I don't want to take notes that are going to make me concentrate on the wrong things.

I'd be eager to see more feedback to your question, though.

Regards, H

[evans075]

I've never thought of doing this in live play. Thanks for the post, I'll now have a notebook at all of my games to make sure I pay attention and be able to look back to see how I played certain hands!

[shermn27]

It seems to me that taking notes in live play in a game that is considered non-competitive (such as a home game or a B&M game) would cause one's oppenents to "tighten up" or play tougher against oneself.

However, in a game that everyone knows is competitive (people are there to win), such as a tournament or major event, note taking at the table would seem not to affect how other's play against you b/c they are there to win anyway and know that you are there to win too.

[beekeeper]

I kind of agree with you. This tournament was a weekly thing and was actually the first poker I'd ever played. I'm part of the "band wagon" that started playing after watching it on tv. But my father-in-law has been playing for years, and he instantly got me a subscription to Card Player and sent me all his old books.

This tournament consists of very friendly guys, but is competitive. I did other things that marked me as a "student of the game" early, so the guys all already tightened up around me (later, they loosened up when they found out they could steal my blinds--lol). Also, my place/win rate was very good in that format.

Now I play in local bar games while I wait for this other game to resume. No way would I take notes there, because these games are less serious and very loose. The adjustments I've had to make to win in these games has brought my game down, I think, so I wouldn't want to take notes on how I'm playing now.

[bkholdem]

When I used to play live in a casino I did take notes but waited until I got home to do so. While there I only took 'mental notes.' I would suggest that you do it while there however, you will retain more. I personally wouldn't do it at the table, I would do it taking periodic breaks.

In addition to my exact win/loss rate, starting time, ending time, day of week, holiday or not, stakes, and bb/hr I also recorded insights, mistakes I made and the circumstances, observations of other players.

For example there was one regular opponent who would slap the table with his whole hand when checking if he was trying to get other players behind him to check too. It was an intimidation thing. I recorded this and bet with any reasonable hand behind him unless I feared players left to act. He would also throw out his chips in the direction of a player when calling a bet he was not happy to call.

Strenghts/weaknesses of opponents, tells.
Also my mood, mental state, other things I think may impact my play positively or negatively.