Quick Basic ?'s on a few PL hands

[donger]

Those preflop equity calculations don't mean much in a dispute over actual EV. I agree that KKxx is profitable in PLO8.

Stranded big pairs DO suck in limit O8, though, for all the reasons you've cited.

[Cooker]

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Hand 2, playing any KKxx for a limp PF is going to be +EV in the long run.

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Any KKxx?

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1262441
pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 ks kc 8d 9h - 6s 4s 7c 5c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ks Kc 8d 9h 155994 265043 234741 216 0 0 0 0.421
6s 4s 7c 5c 234741 234741 265043 216 291120 0 0 0.579

Hmmm, something doesnt seem right.

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Well obviously KKxx isn't going to be a favorite against many hands in this game, but if we get in for a limp we aren't continuing on that many flops. Our EV comes when we catch a favorable flop. A two times calculation is a little misleading cause we are not trying to get all-in pre-flop and see all 5 cards, no?

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A favorable flop? What would that be? The only good outs for high you have is to make trip K's, bascially, and often times that hand will be extremley vunerable. (not to mention you might only take 1/2 if a low is present) A typical "favorable" board for KKQ6 would be ...

K63 (63 suited, not your suit)

Now, you have no possiblity for low, and you have to dodge flush cards and straight cards in the process. Notice how A24T is ahead of you in this situation ...

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1262584
pokenum -o8 kh kc qd 6s - as 2c 4c ts -- kd 6c 3c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 6c 3c Kd
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
6s Kc Qd Kh 148 510 310 0 0 0 0 0.401
As Ts 4c 2c 310 310 510 0 630 0 0 0.599

Having a hand without a low like KKQ6 is not not good, ESPECIALLY FROM EARLY POSITION. It might be worth a limp in LP or the blinds. Please stick to Omaha High.

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It is thinking like this that makes the PLO8 so juicy for Wintermute and Ribbo. K63 with a flush draw is one of the worst flops where you would play on with your Kings, but you give it as a typical "favorable" flop. And even against a hand that hits this flop pretty hard (no reason to expect someone to have a hand with a low draw, flush draw, and straight draw every time you see this flop) you are still only a 3 to 2 dog on the flop and will become a nice favorite on a blank turn where you can push really hard. You are supporting your claim that not playing KKxx is no good by cooking the stats.

[DyessMan89]

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Hand 2, playing any KKxx for a limp PF is going to be +EV in the long run.

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Any KKxx?

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1262441
pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 ks kc 8d 9h - 6s 4s 7c 5c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ks Kc 8d 9h 155994 265043 234741 216 0 0 0 0.421
6s 4s 7c 5c 234741 234741 265043 216 291120 0 0 0.579

Hmmm, something doesnt seem right.

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Well obviously KKxx isn't going to be a favorite against many hands in this game, but if we get in for a limp we aren't continuing on that many flops. Our EV comes when we catch a favorable flop. A two times calculation is a little misleading cause we are not trying to get all-in pre-flop and see all 5 cards, no?

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A favorable flop? What would that be? The only good outs for high you have is to make trip K's, bascially, and often times that hand will be extremley vunerable. (not to mention you might only take 1/2 if a low is present) A typical "favorable" board for KKQ6 would be ...

K63 (63 suited, not your suit)

Now, you have no possiblity for low, and you have to dodge flush cards and straight cards in the process. Notice how A24T is ahead of you in this situation ...

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1262584
pokenum -o8 kh kc qd 6s - as 2c 4c ts -- kd 6c 3c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 6c 3c Kd
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
6s Kc Qd Kh 148 510 310 0 0 0 0 0.401
As Ts 4c 2c 310 310 510 0 630 0 0 0.599

Having a hand without a low like KKQ6 is not not good, ESPECIALLY FROM EARLY POSITION. It might be worth a limp in LP or the blinds. Please stick to Omaha High.

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It is thinking like this that makes the PLO8 so juicy for Wintermute and Ribbo. K63 with a flush draw is one of the worst flops where you would play on with your Kings, but you give it as a typical "favorable" flop. And even against a hand that hits this flop pretty hard (no reason to expect someone to have a hand with a low draw, flush draw, and straight draw every time you see this flop) you are still only a 3 to 2 dog on the flop and will become a nice favorite on a blank turn where you can push really hard. You are supporting your claim that not playing KKxx is no good by cooking the stats.

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K63 is one of the worst flops for KKxx? Then what classifys as an average or good flop? KKK?

You keep burning chips waiting for your dream flop, bud.

[Cooker]

Obviously your reading comprehension skills are lacking so I will try one more time. I said it was one of the worst flops where you will have to play on since you put every draw possible on the board (flush, straight, low) and even still you are only a slight dog to the hand that has every possible draw against you. Any decent player should be able to make +EV decisions on this flop and on the turn and it is really only an OK flop for your hand. I think your mindset is geared too much toward limit to recognize the hugely favorable implied odds situations that can come up on later streets when the bets will be much bigger. You will have odds to call the flop (which you will probably bet anyway) and if the turn blanks you will likely be able to get most of the money in as a nice favorite. KKxx is easy to play post flop which should make it nicely profitable if you can get in cheap.

[Wintermute]

I'm sorry DMan, but you are wrong. KKxx is playable, and it wins big. There are PTO stat threads around that bear this data, but I am too lazy to find one. The trick on flops like the one you came up with is to play them correctly.

[emptyshell]

Thanks for the advice, but I think I'll keep taking the 0.5 BB/Hand that PT says KKxx gives me.

[gergery]

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Hand 2, playing any KKxx for a limp PF is going to be +EV in the long run.

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Any KKxx?

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1262441
pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 ks kc 8d 9h - 6s 4s 7c 5c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ks Kc 8d 9h 155994 265043 234741 216 0 0 0 0.421
6s 4s 7c 5c 234741 234741 265043 216 291120 0 0 0.579

Hmmm, something doesnt seem right.

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What isn't right is that you are confusing twodimes equity with how the hands will play out in a real game.

In a real game 4567 will never be the nuts. so the times it actually is ahead it will not make much money and the times it's behind it will lose money.

whereas KK can pot the flop and generally have a good idea of where it is on the turn.

This is actually a classic example of why twodimes is a valuable learning tool but not to be used as a decision God.

I agree with Cooker and 'mute.
-g