plz critique my weak play

bodi · #1 02-14-2005, 01:01 PM

I often find myself in difficult situations when I flop top pair w/ weak kicker from early position where I got in for cheap. What do you think here

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG+1 raises, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

Shillx · #2 02-14-2005, 01:03 PM

I would check the flop and see what the action looks like. If the flop were more ragged, I might check and call both 3rd and 4th as long as the pot got shorthanded.

Brad

Wario · #3 02-14-2005, 01:15 PM

I would raise preflop.

I'd 3-bet this flop without a read, if he caps call it and then check/fold the turn unimproved.

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If the flop were more ragged, I might check and call both 3rd and 4th as long as the pot got shorthanded.

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Could you explain your reasoning?

You can't be sure someone will bet the flop and if they don't you miss a lot of value from crappy longshot/single overcard etc draws. You also can't be sure a typically passive opponent will bet both streets and by checking the turn you risk giving a free card in a pretty big pot and not pushing your likely even larger equity edge.

sy_or_bust · #4 02-14-2005, 01:17 PM

This is a tough spot, but that really means that you can handle it a number of different ways.

Leading out the flop with top pair/decent kicker runs into trouble against a raise, as in the hand. You're not necessarily strong enough to 3-bet, though you're good here often enough to call down. Some players will 3-bet this flop, though I don't always like it, as you'll often end up leading the betting with a worse hand. And if UTG+1 is a thinking player who might limp KQ/KJ in EP, you're sunk.

Checking is usually best, to see how the hand develops. You can fold 2-bets back to you. You can check/raise a bettor from late position. You can check/call an EP bettor, planning either to call down unimproved (definitely don't fold) or mix it up with a turn check/raise, which is risky but probably +EV. UTG+1 could easily be raising AJ/J10 here, possible worse.

The right play is going to boil down to a read on UTG+1.

Shillx · #5 02-14-2005, 01:34 PM

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I'd 3-bet this flop without a read, if he caps call it and then check/fold the turn unimproved.

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This is really dangerous thinking. By raising for information, you normally make the pot so big that you force yourself to show down. I can pay 2.5 BB to see a showdown while you would use 2 BB to get into a heads up spew fest just to fold the turn if he caps? This looks like a good way to become insolvent to me. Spend your money in a more efficient way.

Brad

Wario · #6 02-14-2005, 01:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd 3-bet this flop without a read, if he caps call it and then check/fold the turn unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really dangerous thinking. By raising for information, you normally make the pot so big that you force yourself to show down. I can pay 2.5 BB to see a showdown while you would use 2 BB to get into a heads up spew fest just to fold the turn if he caps? This looks like a good way to become insolvent to me. Spend your money in a more efficient way.

Brad

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It's more of a value raise really. I like 3-betting because villian doesn't beat TPMK on this flop very often and when he's beat we have a pretty large equity edge to profit from. Typical players however will not cap the flop very often with anything we beat so we can safely fold on the turn. By not 3-betting the flop I think we miss out on value.

I think the key is the huge difference between raising and capping.

Please criticise anything I'm getting wrong.

Womble · #7 02-14-2005, 04:36 PM

I really dont understand checking this flop. Its not that scary and I wouldnt want to give a straight draw the chance to draw for free.

I know I would bet it and call the raise. Probably call down too.

Is it becuase you are first to act with lots of opponents and you kicker isnt higher than the jack?