Top pair no kicker out of position - loose game question

[Rockfish]

Surprisingly didn't play too awfully last night outside of some egregious bluffs from which I have temporarily learned my lesson. I did lose about 20 BB in 2 hrs of play but that was two flush draws not getting there and pocket Ace magnets overplayed after an A flopped. I know, I know...

Here's a hand that I want to discuss because the way I played it was influenced by my re-reading of the "Playing in Loose Games" section of HPFAP21 immediately before sitting down to play.

I'm in the SB with 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] . Three callers to me I complete knowing the BB will rap.

Based on my reading of HPFAP21 I think the call is OK, but am I correct? Do you call knowing it's loose passive and the BB will not raise?

Flop comes T [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] , 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] , 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]

I check and it's checked around.

I was hoping to check-raise a late player to get rid of some players in the middle.

Turn is the A [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]

I check, late position bets, fold, I raise, fold, fold, LP calls, head's-up.

I know he has an Ace. The moron in me convinces the player in me that he's on a backdoor spade draw and that my pair is good.

The river comes the 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]

I bet out and LP calls.

In retrospect, it's odd that I've posted two complete hands so far and both have been T8 in the SB. Remember this hand was tempered by "Playing in Loose Games" from HPFAP21. Everyone should agree that regardless of the decision to call, the major error was continuing after the A turned.

My question is, given the advice of HPFAP21, do you call with this hand pre-flop, and then given the flop what do you do with it? Is this one that you just accept that you hit the flop but can't proceed? How many bet out on the flop? Does a check-raise on the flop make sense?

Rockfish

[Inthacup]

Preflop: fine

Flop: Looks like you're outplaying yourself. Quit trying to be so tricky. Even if you did successfully check-raise, you aren't going to get ANY 4-flush to fold. I bet out the flop here almost every time.

The turn raise is very poor IMO. There's no way an A is going to fold. Looks like you screwed yourself on the flop and are looking to make it up on the turn. The idea is to get the bets in there BEFORE you get drawn out on, and put on the brakes AFTER the scare cards come out.

River: Why bet? What do you put him on? 10-worse kicker, 56 and a 4 are about the only things you're ahead of. Very few times you're going to get called by a worse hand, but there's virtually no chance you'll get a better hand to fold.

[Rockfish]

I lead the league in outplaying myself.

I don't know. I think maybe staying out of these situations might be best for me. I was hoping for objections to the pre-flop call.

I agree in retrospect that betting out is probably the best option. Do you then fold to a raise?

Of course I butchered the turn and the river. I knew in my heart of hearts as it was happening that he had an ace and that there was no way he would fold either to the check raise on the turn or the bet on the river. I included the information for the sake of completeness. In a previous hand I posted for discussion, I posted just the pre-flop and flop because I knew I had bungled it thereafter, but people seemed to want the information anyway.

Rockfish

[Inthacup]

Do you then fold to a raise?

That depends. Is your opponent the kind that would never make a move in his life, playing only ABC poker, top pair top kicker, check down the rest. If so, yes.

It's very possible a flop raise is a 4-flush hand wanting a free card on the turn. I'd probably call the flop, and fold the turn if it was a club or a scare card. Hard to say.

These are the kinds of marginal hands that you're going to have to play beyond just the cards. You're going to have to use player info and game texture as well.

[Allan]

I think the preflop call is fine. Top pair isn't exactly what I am looking for when I make this call, especially in a loose passive game. I think you made the right play on the flop. Most of the time in this sort of game I find myself folding to a bet that isn't from late position. Give me a late position bettor and the situation changes. The problem I see with betting out on this flop is that there aren't a whole lot of of cards that can come on the turn that look like "safe" cards. Also when you run into a raise on this kind of board it is hard to play assertively due to the relalative weak nature of your hand against passive opponents. What are they raising with? flush draw? straight draw? a better T? I remeber a post that Sklansky wrote recently where he explained that if you only played your draws or two pair or better flops on your "loose" calls from the sb you will still be making profitable preflop calls. I don't like the situation when I flop top pair bad kicker on a board like this.

After the flop gets checked through I think the Ace is certainly not a card you like and I would check fold.



Allan

[JTG51]

I think you have a fold preflop. T8o is a pretty marginal hand. If you don't feel that you will play well in maginal situations, just throw it away. You certainly won't be giving much up if you do.

[Rockfish]

I definitely don't play well post-flop in a lot of situations. I posted this hand because I think it's a pretty good example and I want to improve.

I think the ideal flop for this hand (outside of the stone cold nuts) might be something like an inside straight draw that also gives you a pair. I guess that's part of what HPFAP21 is talking about in the loose games section. What kind of flop do you want to see and what kind of flop should you get away from. I think this is the kind I should have gotten away from. Balancing that against the liklihood of getting a flop that is playable might make this hand not even worth half a bet in the SB.

Rockfish

[Homer]

Bet the flop.

Don't checkraise the turn.

Check-fold or check-call the river, don't bet.

-- Homer

[JoeU]

I think the T8 is a fold here preflop. The only thing that would change my mind is the SB and BB amounts. If you need only 1/3 the BB to complete the bet, then a call is definitely ok, especially in a loose passive game. Like JTG said, this is a prtty marginal hand, and I think yoy should be ready to release it ASAP! When the A hit on the turn, you had to know you were in trouble. The check/raise on the turn was ok, but if you put the opponent on an A, you have to know he won't release. I think a fold on the turn would have been ok. The one thing you should have definitely done was bet the flop. Maybe he folds his Ace to a flop bet and you win.

Joe