I got completely lost on this one...

Aaron W. · #1 09-24-2005, 04:17 PM

The maniac from this hand is on the button. Again, his cap is meaningless.

BB is an interesting case. I think he's not that bad. He's been generally staying out of my way as I go at it with the LAG, but he has also shown that he can push back against the LAG. Because of all the action, I think he's a little bit extra loose preflop, but not absurdly so. He probably thinks I'm nuts because I keep showing down weak hands (but they keep winning).

I wanted to check-raise the flop to drive out BB, but when BB bet it, things got a little funny. I went with the check-3-bet to see how he would respond. When I got capped, I started to get worried about being outkicked.

I checked on the turn expecting BB to bet. But he checked... then the maniac checked... By this point, I'm not really sure anymore what anyone has.

I checked the river, hoping that BB has gone into check-call mode with something like 77 (since a second overcard fell), but then he comes out firing on the king. And then the maniac raises. He typed "st" in the chat window (straight), but I have no reason to actually believe him. But did he just pick up a king? And what about BB?

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, Button caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (12 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, Button checks.

River: (12 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Button raises, Hero ...

MrWookie47 · #2 09-24-2005, 04:36 PM

I think you can fold. K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] from BB? You may be beating the maniac, but I'm worried about BB, and it's going to be somewhere between costing you an arm and costing your first born to show this down. The pot is pretty big, but I don't think you're ahead often enough.

chiachu · #3 09-24-2005, 04:52 PM

Seems hard to but BB on a hand that you beat, and add in the fact it might cost you 3-4 bets to call the river, i think a fold is good here.

istewart · #4 09-24-2005, 04:56 PM

What is BB's preflop range here? I think this is very important. Can he have complete crap or does he know how to fold?

I agree with Wookie this looks like K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Button's turn check is really "WTF?" though.

baronzeus · #5 09-24-2005, 04:57 PM

i think the pot is big enough that if you're confident in your read you can 3bet.

jason_t · #6 09-24-2005, 06:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i think the pot is big enough that if you're confident in your read you can 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does the size of the pot effect the EV of a 3-bet?

scotty34 · #7 09-24-2005, 06:53 PM

I really don't think you are good 1 in 8. You also have to factor in the possibility of having to put in 3 or 4 bets on the river. Fold.

MrWookie47 · #8 09-24-2005, 06:56 PM

Eh, if the pot is huge enough, and there's a non-zero chance BB will fold a better hand to the check/3bet, then it comes into play. But for the most part, you're right.

McGahee · #9 09-24-2005, 07:03 PM

I'm lost too. Can't think of a single hand BB can have.

baronzeus · #10 09-24-2005, 07:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think the pot is big enough that if you're confident in your read you can 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does the size of the pot effect the EV of a 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

lets say BB has trips or a straight or a set 50% of the time and will fold everything else (including kings or a better hand X% of the time). and lets say you have button beat 75% of the time and he is never folding. in this scenario, you win the pot approximately 37.5% of the time and would need there to be 7 bets in the pot to make putting in 3bets worth it (because button will call the river for sure. this example is super oversimplified because it doesn't consider how often you think you are beat vs how often BB will fold but it definitely shows that 3betting would be +EV in this case.

theres also some cases where you have both of them beat anyways that has to work into your equation. but at least in this case i think the pot is big enough that 3betting is +EV. if the pot were 4 bets I'd just fold. it's all read dependent really, comes down to how often you think you can fold BB out of a better hand combined with how often you'd be behind the button.