what to memorize?

I'm getting started in low limit Hold'em, and to make things easier I'm making a list of the things I'm going to need to memorize (since I HATE rote memorization).

So far I only have a few things on my list:

<ul type="square">[*]The starting hands to play in the various positions (I'm going with the list in Winning Low Limit Hold'em, since it's smaller that the list in Samll Stakes Hold'em)[*]The drawing odds to improve various hands on the Turn and the River (that is, the odds of drawing from two pair to a full house, or an open straight flush draw into either a straight, flush or straight flush)[/list]
And so far, that's it. After all, it seems (at least to this green fish) that if you know what hands to play from what position, then (provided you hot help on the flop) it's just a matter of weighing the drawing odds to improve your hand vs. the pot odds. If the pot odds are in your favor, then you bet. If you bet when the odds are in your favor, then while you may bust out every now and then, over time you will win money.

Yes, there is that matter of interprating the betting and reading the players, but that can't be improved by memorizing a list. Those are improved through experience.

Is there anything missing from my list of things to memorize?

Yes, you should try to memorize starting hands, but please do not just memorize one over the other because it is shorter. Personally, although I used the hands from WLLH for 3 years of B&amp;M play - I thnk the SSHE hands are better. Also please remember, although you should follow the starting hands guidlines - you should adapt them to the game, the table, and your reads. So, yes you need to memorize a foundation - don't always follow it to the letter. If you are merely memorizing the WLLH hands because it is shorter but you think the SSHE are better (which I do). Here is a link to a chart of the SSHE hands that is quite easy to use. I never memorized it, but as you use it you will find that the concepts within make sense and you will not need to memorize it.

Also, definitely memorize the odds for hands with 2-8 outs. Usually hands with 9 outs are almost always worth a call. I also found it useful to memorize what hands had what amount of outs (e.g. Flush Draw = 9 outs (4.22:1), Open ended straight draw = 8 outs(4.88:1) - assuming you do not have to discount outs). Here is another great link with an odds chart. .

Lastly, remember, memorization alone will not work if you do not understand the concepts AND know how to properly apply them. This is what I am currently struggling with. To overcome this you have to continue to read/study, play, post hands and more importantly reply to other posters hands, and repeat.

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Lastly, remember, memorization alone will not work if you do not understand the concepts AND know how to properly apply them. This is what I am currently struggling with. To overcome this you have to continue to read/study, play, post hands and more importantly reply to other posters hands, and repeat.

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Absolutly true, I agree. I know I should fold when I'm UTG and all I have is 7s 6s, but sometimes I pay to see the Flop anyway. And loose my bet.

Still working on my focus and dicpline. That's why I'm also still only playing with play money using Poker Academy.

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Lastly, remember, memorization alone will not work if you do not understand the concepts AND know how to properly apply them.

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I'm UTG and all I have is 7s 6s, but sometimes I pay to see the Flop anyway

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This is where UNDERSTANDING the concepts comes in. There are some games where playing 76s in early position is not a horrible mistake. It also may be a good way to vary your play a little to create/alter your table image - but if you are at the point where you are just learning the starting hands, don't worry about table image yet.

It may speed your progress along to just print out a hand chart and keep that where you can see it. As Ed Miller says in SSHE(I'll paraphrase), don't focus so much on starting hands that you push off learning post flop concepts. Once you play a couple of thousand hands referencing your chart, you won't need to look at the chart, what to play in what positions will be memorized through experience. Just keep in mind that you must play tight, especially from early position and focus on developing your post flop play. Also, memorizing a chart simply because it is smaller may mean that you miss out on some profits over the long term.

Another suggestion that I'm sure you'll hear - get yourself on some real money micro-limit tables. Play money just isn't the same. I believe that some sites will let you open an account with as little as $25.

[AKQJ10]

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If you are merely memorizing the WLLH hands because it is shorter but you think the SSHE are better (which I do).

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The SSHE hands list is intended specifically for more intermediate players, or at least for exceptionally talented beginners. Even Ed Miller simplified these starting hand recommendations substantially in GSiH. I can't vouch for WLLH 3rd edition, but based on the 2nd edition I would guess that it's probably more appropriate for beginners than the SSHE list.

That said, I wouldn't consider it a crisis if the OP were studying the SSHE list; it just might take a while for those marginal hands to become profitable as he improves in postflop play.

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I can't vouch for WLLH 3rd edition, but based on the 2nd edition I would guess that it's probably more appropriate for beginners than the SSHE list.

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My copy of WLLH is the new 3rd Ed. It seems that after extensive discussion with another poker pro (I forget just who) Lee Jones has tightened up his list of starting hands.

I agree that the reccomendations on what to do for each hand at each position in SSHE are probably the best around, but since I'm a green fish I figure I'll stick with simple until I become better disiplined in my play.

[AKQJ10]

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This is where UNDERSTANDING the concepts comes in. There are some games where playing 76s in early position is not a horrible mistake.

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I'll go farther -- there are some games where it's not a mistake at all. IIRC in SSHE Ed says that the problem with overplaying suited connectors up front is that you may have a raise behind you that shuts out everyone else and denies you the odds needed to make such hands worthwhile. But if you're in a game where several players will merrily cold-call 2, 3, or 4 bets with the same dubious hands they'll limp in with, you don't really have much to worry about.

Granted, your implied odds are substantially eroded by calling several bets preflop, so I wouldn't suggest cold-calling several bets preflop. But if you're in a loose AND passive game, it's probably OK to limp with 76s UTG.

I agree with you. When I "found" 2+2 and revamped my game I started with GSIH and the starting hands within and then moved on to SSHE. My main point was not to just chose a set of hands because it is shorter, rather chose the one that is better. GSIH and SSHE are IMO better than WLLH.

[jasonHoldEm]

Disclaimer: the following is just my two cents, proceed with caution.

I'd highly recommend reading GSIH -&gt; SSHE over WLLHE. WLLHE is a great book (it was the first one I read, but that was before the other books were published). I feel that using GSIH -&gt; SSHE to get yourself up to speed is a much better method.

There are certain things you'll need to memorize along the way, but don't sweat it. Memorizing a hand chart isn't nearly as important as understanding the poker theory behind the chart (i.e the "WHY" you should play this hand in this position, etc). Focus on the theory and you won't need to memorize the hand chart because you'll already know what to play where (and more imporantly you'll know WHY).

Odds...I've been playing seriously for about 3.5 years (professionally for the last two) and I couldn't tell you the *exact* odds for any draw. Why? Because in my opinion it's just not that important. What IS important is being able to figure out your approximate odds quickly at the table...enter the rule of 4 and 2 (stolen partially from Phil Gordon's Little Green Book, which is another great book to get if you're planning to play no-limit).

Rule of 4 and 2
1. Figure out the number of outs you have (both GSIH and SSHE have a great discussion of how to calculate your outs, discounted outs, hidden outs, etc).
2. To calculate your odds for two cards to come (flop-&gt;river) multiply your outs by 4. The answer will be (approximately) your percentage chance of making your hand WITH TWO CARDS TO COME.
3. To calculate your odds for one card to come multiply by 2.
4. presto.

While I'm sure some people will argue with my method, I only care about having an approximate number rather than knowing that a 9 out draw is exactly 4.22:1 (I actually had to look that up). Why? Because in almost all cases you're going to have a clear cut answer based on your approximate number that's going to be the same as the answer you get knowing the exact odds. In those situations where it's "close" it's going to be a judgement call whether to continue with the hand anyways, so who cares? I'd rather memorize a simple method like the rule of 4/2 then waste my time memorizing every single odds ratio....I have better things to do with my time (like make money).

Ultimately, the best way to learn is play. Poker knowledge is cyclical...you'll study a concept in a book and then go out to the tables and deepen your understanding of the concept by applying it first hand. Likewise, as you gain more expereince at the tables new concepts and ideas will jump off the pages of books that you didn't understand (or even see) before. Rinse. Lather. Repeat.

Good Luck,
J

[POKhER]

I skipped to post quickly here, But after seeing "im memorising starting hands" i needed to post this(I've prob parroted someone elses reply but anyhow).

You dont memorise, You adjust according to a game.

In a super tight game for example i may raise QJo from MP if im pretty dam sure everyone will fold.

Dont memorise "Ok so i limp QJo with callers from LP" "ok so i fold QJo from MP" "Ok i raise 99 from MP".

Anyhow back to shorthanded forum i go [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]