Yeah, I turned Trips!

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]

Probably slowplaying AA or something. Okay but its hard to put him on a queen, why didnt he raise the flop with a queen? Most people don't slowplay top pair there.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is people don't think they are slowplaying. They are just calling becasue thats what passive people do with a pair.

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
A solid, passive player raises with ______ on a QT2Q board?

[/ QUOTE ]

Three things about this hand before the turn:
1 - "Folded to button who limps"
2 - "Flop is QT2 with 2 diamonds"
3 - "I bet 60 and the button calls"

If hero is behind on the turn, button would be holding:
QA
QK
QJ
QT....(we'll call <T a potential split pot)
22
TT
.....it would stand to reason, button would open-raise AQ, TT (maybe KQ,22). so with a limp, a 'behind' hand would most likely be QJ.

Possilbe hands hero is ahead of (that would limp PF & flat call the flop bet):
2 diamonds
J9s (maybe)
ATo (probably raising PF though)

[it would be important to know if the Q was one of the diamonds on board. if not, we might also consider a loose PF limp with Q<T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]'s]

The most puzzling thing for me is the flat call on the 4/5 flop bet. If we consider QJ the most likely 'behind' hand, wouldn't button raise the flop (ditto for KQ,22)? This is especially true with SB still to act, who is now being layed better than 3-1 as well. The call makes a flush draw, straight draw, or AT much more likely IMO.

- button has just under t1000 chips to the turn
- button's raise is close to 1/2 his stack
- hero slows down just a tad on the turn (3.5/5)

I'm wondering if maybe button thought hero's turn bet was too weak for a Q (even though hero's opponent is not being given odds to chase the draw). In button's mind, hero's flop bet could have also been a T or two diamonds....hero's turn bet could be interpreted as a significant, but last 'stab' at the pot.

Asking myself this question: " IF button sniffed out any weakness from the blind leader, and made a move on this pot (with a draw), what would he raise?"

The "1/2 his stack" raise is the amount that stops hero in his tracks. It's right between the minraise-i-have-a-monster-please-call, and a 'push in the dark'. His MAJOR representation is a little deceiving, as he can still move off the hand w/t500 chips (as opposed to the blind push). And he DOESN'T want to get called.

His raise is the perfect amount IMO - drawing to the flush or maybe ATo, where either one could stlil pick him up the pot with a cheap showdown (if/when hero calls the turn raise).

[freemoney]

if this is a 100 whats villians name?

[bluefeet]

Ps. ...that's why I push (I inadvertantly said 'call' previously)

[freemoney]

if opponent is good in a passive kind of way i think pushing is the worst of all 3 options.

[bluefeet]

Folding would certainly have to be better than calling. If we call because we MIGHT be ahead, we're only giving button a chance to pull ahead on the river.

If we fail to pair the board, or the 5 on the river, are we check/folding or check/callinng? If we're check/calling - with the notion we ARE in fact ahead, then I see no reason to give the river card 'for free'. If we're check/folding the river - with the notion "whelp, guess I AM behind", then I see no reason to call the turn raise.

Similarly, if hero bets (pushes essentially) the river, what is the benefit of giving the river card?

Folding has to be better than calling no?

I can live with either folding or pushing, but calling has to be the least attractive option.

[illunious]

I fold, you still have 1300, instead of 500 when you're wrong. If he raised around pot on the flop, I'd fold. The fact that he waited until the turn only makes it easier for me.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
if this is a 100 whats villians name?

[/ QUOTE ]

trout_lips

[illunious]

[ QUOTE ]
Similarly, if hero bets (pushes essentially) the river, what is the benefit of giving the river card?

[/ QUOTE ]

The benefit I see of calling is that you can make a tiny bet on every river that doesn't improve your hand, villain might just call with something like QJ if he's passive enough or it's a scare card. He'd also call a small bet with a T, but could have folded to a push on the turn. By calling the turn, you're not folding any river, but in these two scenarios you might save or make a few hundred chips.

Depends how much credit you give to a solid passive player semibluffing a draw on the turn.

My logic is probably extremely screwed up... I'm just a low stakes newb.

[freemoney]

if you are making the decision to not fold this hand then calling is MUCH better than pushing and its not a matter of opinion its really right or wrong, if villian is passive and solid.