educate a liberal

[laserboy]

"We need an energy bill that encourages consumption." - George W. Bush

Your government is bought and paid for by big oil.

Meanwhile the Chinese government is building maglev trains, modular nuclear reactors, and new forms of coal liquefaction.

[BCPVP]

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Pork and cronyism are the pillars of what this administration has been trying to accomplish (and has) since day one.

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It's amusing to hear a lefty complaining about pork. Especially since the most liberal congressmen are the most wasteful of taxpayer dollars. Don't believe me? Go check out the non-partisan site www.cagw.org . And don't let the founders of the website trip you up, as CAGW regularly takes Republicans to task for being wasteful.

And you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I've read that Bush is limiting non-defense/homeland security spending to less than inflation.

[MtSmalls]

Sure he does. Its called a Presidential VETO. Something the Chimp-in-Chief hasn't used once in FIVE YEARS

[MtSmalls]

The Energy bill, the highway transportation bill, the Medicare prescription drug act, the Clear Skies initiative, the Healthy forests intiative, the bankruptcy bill, oh and all the no-bid Halliburton/KBR contracts.

[tylerdurden]

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This is true in theory, but in practice, no one has yet observed a non-corrupt polititian.

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Huh?

What's your standard for 'corrupt politician'? This is either a wild exaggeration or you've been misguided.

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How about "no one has yet observed a polititian who is not an oppressor"? Government is essentially the negation of liberty. Those who are agents of government are complicit. In this case, it's more correct to say that "government" itself is corrupt, the polititians are technically not corrupt since they are behaving as they should in such a system - i.e. as oppressors.

[DVaut1]

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How about "no one has yet observed a polititian who is not an oppressor"? Government is essentially the negation of liberty. Those who are agents of government are complicit. In this case, it's more correct to say that "government" itself is corrupt, the polititians are technically not corrupt since they are behaving as they should in such a system - i.e. as oppressors.

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Oh well, let's just hijack this thread.

I think we should leave room for the notion that not all government is, dare I say, oppressive?

I'm going to go way out on a limb here and claim that by submitting to the authority of the state, said submission allows you (perhaps unknowingly) to lead a much freer life than if you didn't.

Anyway, when you fully renounce your claims to all government protections, please let me know - I'll be over to your house soon to forcefully take it over; should you be there ready to defend it, let the battle begin.

I have a feeling libertarians may not enjoy Locke's State of War as much as they might initially think.

[tylerdurden]

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I think we should leave room for the notion that not all government is, dare I say, oppressive?

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Haven't seen one yet that wasn't.

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I'm going to go way out on a limb here and claim that by submitting to the authority of the state, said submission allows you (perhaps unknowingly) to lead a much freer life than if you didn't.

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No. You're presenting a false dichotomy. There isn't one single alternative (warlord anarchy) to an established government. The non-existence of the state does NOT necessarily mean we go back to caveman existence.

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Anyway, when you fully renounce your claims to all government protections, please let me know - I'll be over to your house soon to forcefully take it over; should you be there ready to defend it, let the battle begin.

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Another false dichotomy. You presume that the non-existence of the state would prevent the existence of a property defense market.

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I have a feeling libertarians may not enjoy Locke's State of War as much as they might initially think.

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Probably. I, however, don't think there would be a state of war.

This "warlord problem" is often put forward as an argument against anarcho-capitalism. It's unfounded. In any society you can present that would degenerate into this condition, the addition of a state would not help (and probably would make this situation worse).

[DVaut1]

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I think we should leave room for the notion that not all government is, dare I say, oppressive?

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Haven't seen one yet that wasn't.

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Look harder?

http://www.us.gov/

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There isn't one single alternative (warlord anarchy) to an established government.

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I had to read this a few times before I understood. What you mean to say is: "There is more than one alternative to an established government" - what you said made it sound as if there are no alternatives to established government.

Anyway, I'm willing to listen to the alternatives.

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Another false dichotomy. You presume that the non-existence of the state would prevent the existence of a property defense market.

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Is the 'property defense market' not just a cute way of saying that warlord anarchy would be replaced with warlord order?

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This "warlord problem" is often put forward as an argument against anarcho-capitalism. It's unfounded.

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Care to propose a workable alternative?

[WillMagic]

That's a good way to make friends....veto your own party's legislation.

Bush might as well put on a duck suit if he were to veto something like that.

Will

[The once and future king]

Pvn I dig some of your responses, but then you go and spoil it all by saying:

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How about "no one has yet observed a polititian who is not an oppressor"? Government is essentially the negation of liberty. Those who are agents of government are complicit. In this case, it's more correct to say that "government" itself is corrupt, the polititians are technically not corrupt since they are behaving as they should in such a system - i.e. as oppressors.


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Foaming+mouth+extremist = PVN.