A deer in headlights

[cartman]

Villain is unknown.

PREFLOP:
UTG+1 open limps, everyone else folds and Hero raises in the BB with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

FLOP:J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero bets, Villain calls.

TURN: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero bets, Villain calls.

RIVER: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero?


If you bet do you call a raise?

What is your river line if the cards were identical but you had raised UTG and Villain had cold-called on the button?


Thanks,
Cartman

[Fiddler]

I think I bet-call in both situations and rationalize it with the fact that he is unknown and that I wouldn't have minded more than 1BB going in on the turn. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[stigmata]

He's unkown and he's done nothing but call so I fire again, fully expecting to be called by 2nd pair or some such crap. If he raises, I'm seeing a showdown because he's new and A) I want to know his hand B) meta-game reasons to show him I can't be pushed off hands. With a better read I could fold the river raise.

I can see a case for check-calling to induce a bluff from some wierd draw etc. However, I think you lose value all the times that a lower pair checks it for a free show down.

[imported_azalin]

I bet on the river also. I am not usually afraid of just 1 overcard. He has not shown any aggresion at all so far.

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
If you bet do you call a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[ QUOTE ]
What is your river line if the cards were identical but you had raised UTG and Villain had cold-called on the button?

[/ QUOTE ]

Same as this hand. Check/call. FWIW, I'd rather just check from the BB with AJs against an 1 early limper there because I think you'll make more money with good hands. How often would he give you credit for TPTK on that flop if you just checked pf and c/r'd the flop?

[cartman]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I'd rather just check from the BB with AJs against an 1 early limper there because I think you'll make more money with good hands. How often would he give you credit for TPTK on that flop if you just checked pf and c/r'd the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the problem is that I am only going to flop a pair around 1/3 of the time. I think the preflop raise probably gains me more via increased folding equity when he misses the flop than it loses me in deception value when I do flop a pair. Of course, and as always, I could be dead wrong.

Cartman

[mtdoak]

easy bet/call.

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the preflop raise probably gains me more via increased folding equity when he misses the flop than it loses me in deception value when I do flop a pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding equity is the other thing. I wonder how much you gain when you miss a rag flop and c/r after just checking. You're representing a BB crap hit but probably have outs. I'm just wondering about the position aspect of it because I find that representing strength from the BB pf gets less respect on rag flops from an early limper than a c/r does. You're expected to lead out on anything.

[Transference]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I'd rather just check from the BB with AJs against an 1 early limper there because I think you'll make more money with good hands. How often would he give you credit for TPTK on that flop if you just checked pf and c/r'd the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you check with AK as well? Hero's equity edge against a random limper is excellent.

I bet fold here. I just don't see the average player bluff raising this river and this pot isnt even very large. I might be wrong but I haven't seen a convincing argument to the contrary. (I don't accept 'meta game implications' as a good reason to call).

[aba20]

You should be raising this preflop. On the river is an easy bet/call. From his actions what makes you think he has a king? There are so many worse hands that will call. You would be missing alot of value by checking this hand.