Too tricky? -- corrected

[Rococo]

Butchered the description in the previous post. The following is correct.

5-10 NLH -- 5 handed

New to the game but it appears to be loose passive with very few open raises. Stacks are mostly even with everyone around $500.

UTG limps with J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. UTG+1 calls. Button raises to 15, and SB and BB fold.

Flop

J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG and UTG + 1 check. Button bets $60. UTG raises $160. UTG+1 folds. Button calls.

Turn

Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG checks. Button checks.

River

2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. UTG pushes. Results to follow.

[AJo Go All In]

dude get your [censored] together, it's still wrong

[turnipmonster]

ok I give up. why did UTG check raise the flop and then check the turn?

the only reason to check the turn is you think you are somehow behind, which you may or may not be (but probably aren't) but then I hate the push on the river. what hand are you going to get called by that beats you? what better hand are you going to move him off of?

my line would be to bet the flop, bet the turn and bet the river. betbetbet. the checkraise is ok, but I would never check the turn after checkraising the flop unless I had a good read. if I did check the turn, I certainly would not have pushed on the river.
--turnipmonster

[Rococo]

Button's call of the checkraise on the turn smells like an overpair. Thus, he was likely to call if UTG pushed either on the turn on the river. In that case, shouldn't UTG check the turn and get away from the hand if an K or A falls. If Button holds pocket Qs, then UTG is fried either way.

[NotAClue]

If the opponent has KK then UTG is giving the button 10 outs not just 2 to beat him. If Button has AA, then button has 6 outs. All of this for free on the turn. Not to mention UTG might make a huge mistake on the river laying a winner down. All in all get the money in when you're pretty sure you're ahead.

Plus if you check the turn after checkraising the flop, people are much more likely to call your flop checkraise knowing that they're likely to get a free card. Not good for your bluffing equity. You want people to know that if they call a flop check-raise they're facing a pot sized bet on the turn.

[turnipmonster]

if I could put UTG on an over pair or pocket QQ and thought he would call, I would push on the turn every time. 12 times he will be drawing to 2 outs, and 3 times he'll have a set. you cannot just check the turn and give him a free card so you can fold when an A or K hits, that's terrible poker.

also, I wouldn't be so quick to put the button on an overpair with a minimum raise preflop.

--turnipmonster

[Paul2432]

KK has 16 outs (6 two-pair, 8 straight, 2 three of a kind)
AA has 12 outs (6 two-pair, 4 straight, 2 three of a kind)

A player with KK actually has pot odds to call an all-in on the turn.

Nonetheless, I agree all-in on the turn is the right play.

Paul

[turnipmonster]

good point, I'm a moron.

--turnipmonster

[Rococo]

I am willing to concede that the assumption that the Button has an overpair may be incorrect, but if he does, and if he will call an all-in bet on the turn OR the river, then checking the turn is the correct play. As someone pointed out, he has correct odds to call an all-in bet on the turn if he has KK (and probably with AA as well since he has to consider the possibility that UTG is overplaying AJ).

The only question, then, is whether UTG wants more information before he pushes. "Charging" the Button to draw isn't a relevant consideration here because there is no circumstance (assuming that UTG's assumptions about an overpair are correct) in which the Button will lay down a hand to an all-in bet on the turn that otherwise might have turned into a winner on the river.

In any case, Button called the all-in on the river and folded face down, so there is no way to know what he held.

[turnipmonster]

when you check, you are laying him infinite odds to beat you. when you bet, you are laying him a price and now he has to fear AA-KK-AK from you.

mathematically, how is giving him infinite odds to beat you a better proposition than laying him 2 to 1?
--turnipmonster